was going with a 73 ps gear box.No ps on my Bee. Now thinking of either of these. pros, cons? Borgeson you need coupler and lines,Firmfeel you need core. What and why did you go with what you have .Thanks Dave
firm feel vs borgeson
- Thread starter davek
- Start date
Been using Firm Feel for years, always stood behind their product. I also like their R&D methods
Derwud
Well-Known Member
New parts, newer tech, Borgensen..
Call Bergman Auto Craft and ask them http://bergmanautocraft.com/contact.php
Call Bergman Auto Craft and ask them http://bergmanautocraft.com/contact.php
BeepBeepRR
Well-Known Member
I will be doing a borgensen install this weekend. Converting a N96 GTX 440 4-speed from manual to power steering. for my 74 year old friend. Bought the complete setup to do it. I can let you know how easy it goes and what sucks and what doesnt. Bought the universal joint style coupler too. I have both style couplers will choose which to use when it comes to that time.
Did a firm feel on the roadrunner drives good but still has steering wheel play. That may be in part to upper control arm bushings needing to be replaced. Everything else was. Not real sure why it has the play.
Did a firm feel on the roadrunner drives good but still has steering wheel play. That may be in part to upper control arm bushings needing to be replaced. Everything else was. Not real sure why it has the play.
Evan Frucht
Well-Known Member
Might be obvious but have you adjusted the steering box. Stock type is adjustable. When I bought my car it had a ton of play in the steering wheel, but I adjusted the set screw at the top and it made most of the play go away. I still plan to replace all the steering components soon, and I'm thinking that will completely take care of the wiggle.
BeepBeepRR
Well-Known Member
No i have not adjusted it. It should have been ready to go from Firm Feel for 600 bucks. I have heard of bad things happening when adjusting that worm gear.
tonysrt
Well-Known Member
I have a 71 cuda and had a firm feel P/S box. I put in a Borgenson and I would never use the original box again. I have a 74 Duster that I will put in a Borgenson when the weather gets warmer. The difference with the Borgey box is night and day. You'll love it because no slop in steering any more.
Evan Frucht
Well-Known Member
I would agree but maybe they have some sort of reason for not adjusting it fully, or maybe it's not accurate when adjusted before installation. Just guessing there. Did they tell you specifically that you should not make any adjustments? Or did they tell you it's adjusted and ready to go? What kind of bad things have you heard can happen from adjusting it?
BeepBeepRR
Well-Known Member
I read a post some where on this forum about a guy that "adjusted" his and nearly wrecked his car it went full lock and caused him to veer off the road.
Please let me know which coupler you use and how the install gos.
SDCoronet
Well-Known Member
I really like my borg box. The feel is wonderful compared to my original worn out box. I don’t have experience with the firm feel rebuilds but I hear they are great too.
What made me go with the borg box was the huge shipping fee to mail my original boat anchor to firm feel. I believe it was going to be over $70 if I remember right.
I just realized an outstanding issue that I do have - The original type power steering hose does not lay nicely in the engine bay like it did with the old box. I am pretty sure I will have to get a custom power steering hose made, or possibly go with the borg hoses.
I used the full Bergman Kit that came with the extended steering coupler.
What made me go with the borg box was the huge shipping fee to mail my original boat anchor to firm feel. I believe it was going to be over $70 if I remember right.
I just realized an outstanding issue that I do have - The original type power steering hose does not lay nicely in the engine bay like it did with the old box. I am pretty sure I will have to get a custom power steering hose made, or possibly go with the borg hoses.
I used the full Bergman Kit that came with the extended steering coupler.
Gwinnetts
Active Member
I replaced the steering box in my 69 charger with a unit from Steer and Gear. Huge difference in the steering response and feel. I just replaced the Cardone unit in my 73 Challenger with another unit from them. Very happy with the product.
chtampa
Well-Known Member
S&G builds theirs in house and they are very easy to work with. Very happy with mine. PM me if you want to know more, the last time I spoke against the other company I was RED X'd.
Mjcre
Well-Known Member
i went with the firm feel stage 2 box and there is no comparison to the one finger steering and sloppy original box I had in my car. Went with firm feel for the straight forward replacement (I didn’t want to run into any issues installing the borg) and cost difference of the borg. However I ended up selling the original box instead of worrying about shipping it back for the core charge. So I lost a little more that way as well.
I can’t remember the price difference, but I would consider the borg if I was going to do the swap again in a different car.
I can’t remember the price difference, but I would consider the borg if I was going to do the swap again in a different car.
I used Firm Feel stage 2 replacing a older replacement steering box last year. I did send it back for the core. I used regular ps coupler that I already had. No changes there. Not really knowing the difference between Firm Feel and Borgenson, I went with FF. Nothing bad to say against Borgenson, I just didn’t use their product. That said, I am not disappointed with my Firm Feel box at all! My steering was so bad that anything would have made it better. This box does works well. I would be curious to Feel the difference between the 2 before buying again.
Good luck
Good luck
Larrry B.
Well-Known Member
Had a FF Stage 2 which was better than stock, changed out to a Borgeson unit just under 2 years ago and like it much better than the FF.
Smaller, lighter with a better turning radius without the squishy feel the rebuilt stock piece seems to have and with much better road feel.
The only thing that might be better would be a rack & pinion setup.
Borgeson all the way.
Smaller, lighter with a better turning radius without the squishy feel the rebuilt stock piece seems to have and with much better road feel.
The only thing that might be better would be a rack & pinion setup.
Borgeson all the way.
Last edited:
BeepBeepRR
Well-Known Member
When I shipped the stocker back to FF it cost 75.00 to ship. so ended up with 125 refunded.
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I'll chime in....
In 2004 when I rebuilt the front suspension and steering, there were 2 options: Go to a junkyard and try to find a newer unit that had less slop OR have one rebuilt by the popular vendors. CARDONE and the others that are priced at or under $200 are guaranteed to disappoint. In fact, the only advantage they might have over a 100,000 mile unit is that the Cardone might not leak. They replace zero hard parts, their service is merely a clean and REgasket job. Steer and Gear and Firm Feel take it further, replacing worn internal parts but Firm Feel makes their own springs and other internal parts. No matter what, ALL of these factory steering units are based on a design that was created in the late 1950s! Back then, the goal of power steering was effortless turning. Even with a rebuilt suspension, cars with a stock steering chuck steered like a car on ice. There is almost no resistance to the wheel. The Firm Feel modifications add some resistance.
I went with a Firm Feel stage 3 and later added Fast Ratio idler and Pitman arms. What this did was reduce the turns from lock to lock of about 3 1/2 turns to about 2 3/4 turns. As a result, the steering feel is even firmer than it was with stock idler and Pitman arms.
Here is the problem: The Firmer that you make the steering, the more on center slop you feel. You can adjust some of it out but not all. You never notice that slop with an easy steering car but with the added resistance, it is clear as day. Mine can be clocked from 11:00 to 1:00 back and forth and the car does not turn. You can see the steering shaft move but the Pitman arm barely responds. THIS is the result of a 60 year old design. The guys at Firm Feel do the best that they can with this design but they are not master magicians.
I am very curious about the Borgeson unit. I may pull the trigger on it some day. If I do, I'll spring for that custom Hybrid coupler that allows you to retain your stock steering shaft...OR I'll install that Cordoba tilt steering column and modify that to work.
Good luck.
In 2004 when I rebuilt the front suspension and steering, there were 2 options: Go to a junkyard and try to find a newer unit that had less slop OR have one rebuilt by the popular vendors. CARDONE and the others that are priced at or under $200 are guaranteed to disappoint. In fact, the only advantage they might have over a 100,000 mile unit is that the Cardone might not leak. They replace zero hard parts, their service is merely a clean and REgasket job. Steer and Gear and Firm Feel take it further, replacing worn internal parts but Firm Feel makes their own springs and other internal parts. No matter what, ALL of these factory steering units are based on a design that was created in the late 1950s! Back then, the goal of power steering was effortless turning. Even with a rebuilt suspension, cars with a stock steering chuck steered like a car on ice. There is almost no resistance to the wheel. The Firm Feel modifications add some resistance.
I went with a Firm Feel stage 3 and later added Fast Ratio idler and Pitman arms. What this did was reduce the turns from lock to lock of about 3 1/2 turns to about 2 3/4 turns. As a result, the steering feel is even firmer than it was with stock idler and Pitman arms.
Here is the problem: The Firmer that you make the steering, the more on center slop you feel. You can adjust some of it out but not all. You never notice that slop with an easy steering car but with the added resistance, it is clear as day. Mine can be clocked from 11:00 to 1:00 back and forth and the car does not turn. You can see the steering shaft move but the Pitman arm barely responds. THIS is the result of a 60 year old design. The guys at Firm Feel do the best that they can with this design but they are not master magicians.
I am very curious about the Borgeson unit. I may pull the trigger on it some day. If I do, I'll spring for that custom Hybrid coupler that allows you to retain your stock steering shaft...OR I'll install that Cordoba tilt steering column and modify that to work.
Good luck.
Evan Frucht
Well-Known Member
ya that's scary, when I adjusted mine I followed the procedure in the manual so I wasn't really thinking it could go wrong... I'm very curious as to why tightening it up would cause it to lock? The last thing I want is my steering to lock up on me! If anyone has more info on adjustment that would be great. I'm thinking that guy must have done something wrong, or gone too far... but how would one know?
Derwud
Well-Known Member
Hopefully I will have my car at Spring Fling if you are coming down to check out..
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