Holley Terminator first start that didnt

[Paul_G]

Helping a friend with the install and start up of his 496 Stoker with Holley Terminator FI. This has been a several month long project that we have been working on. Yesterday was finally time to get it started. Which did not go well. The engine is fresh build that was on the dyno at the engine builders. So it was already tested and tuned using a dyno carb. Break in already done.

The system is the Holley Terminator FI system using an in tank pump with inline fuel filters and a Holley return style pressure regulator. The fuel is filtered before it gets to the fuel injection, from there it goes to the regulator, then back to tank.

We ran the fuel pump, flushing out the lines, and getting fuel to circulate in the system. We followed the Terminator start up instructions, set up a base tune, all the sensors were reading back, except A/F because the engine never ran. We could not get the engine to run. It would crank, try to fire but never quite get there. Tried moving the dizzy both ways, nothing. Finally put the dizzy back on the mark and dribbled some fuel down the FI unit, and it would start for a few seconds at a time but never fire off and run on it's own. So it looked like ignition is not the problem.

Holley wants 43 psi of fuel pressure. We ran the pump manually and set the pressure to 43psi.

Double checked the firing order, and made sure the the dizzy was pointed to #1 plug when #1 was on top dead center, 0° on the timing mark. Besides the engine would run when fuel was poured in.

Went in to the advanced tune section and turned up the fuel enrichment parameters as much as we could. Still no run.

Battery voltage had dropped to just at 12 volts. Could that voltage be too low to fire the injection?

Holley tech had already closed by this time. We were both completely frustrated and gave up.

Any one have any ideas we could try? We will have to call Holley tech next week and see what they recommend to do. Believe me, Mike and I have waited a long time to hear his beast come to life. Tomorrow would be a good day if we could get this figured out.

 

[Yatzee]

Helping a friend with the install and start up of his 496 Stoker with Holley Terminator FI. This has been a several month long project that we have been working on. Yesterday was finally time to get it started. Which did not go well. The engine is fresh build that was on the dyno at the engine builders. So it was already tested and tuned using a dyno carb. Break in already done.

The system is the Holley Terminator FI system using an in tank pump with inline fuel filters and a Holley return style pressure regulator. The fuel is filtered before it gets to the fuel injection, from there it goes to the regulator, then back to tank.

We ran the fuel pump, flushing out the lines, and getting fuel to circulate in the system. We followed the Terminator start up instructions, set up a base tune, all the sensors were reading back, except A/F because the engine never ran. We could not get the engine to run. It would crank, try to fire but never quite get there. Tried moving the dizzy both ways, nothing. Finally put the dizzy back on the mark and dribbled some fuel down the FI unit, and it would start for a few seconds at a time but never fire off and run on it's own. So it looked like ignition is not the problem.

Holley wants 43 psi of fuel pressure. We ran the pump manually and set the pressure to 43psi.

Double checked the firing order, and made sure the the dizzy was pointed to #1 plug when #1 was on top dead center, 0° on the timing mark. Besides the engine would run when fuel was poured in.

Went in to the advanced tune section and turned up the fuel enrichment parameters as much as we could. Still no run.

Battery voltage had dropped to just at 12 volts. Could that voltage be too low to fire the injection?

Holley tech had already closed by this time. We were both completely frustrated and gave up.

Any one have any ideas we could try? We will have to call Holley tech next week and see what they recommend to do. Believe me, Mike and I have waited a long time to hear his beast come to life. Tomorrow would be a good day if we could get this figured out.

 

[Yatzee]

Check to make sure that the unit is receiving a signal to fire the injectors. On MSD units, the signal comes from the coil negative post. Should be the same on yours. And be sure the unit is well grounded. You should hear the injectors fire when the key is turned on before you go to "START". Power should come directly from the battery except for the ignition feed.

 

[Lionized]

Can you hear the pumps fire when you turn the key on?
Are you reading 43psi at the regulator with the key on?

 

[5.7 hemi]

Turn the idle screw to open the blades a tad bit.

 

[Paul_G]

Check to make sure that the unit is receiving a signal to fire the injectors. On MSD units, the signal comes from the coil negative post. Should be the same on yours. And be sure the unit is well grounded. You should hear the injectors fire when the key is turned on before you go to "START". Power should come directly from the battery except for the ignition feed.

We selected the FI to use coil negative for the speed signal. The correct wire in the harness goes directly to coil negative. When cranking, we can see a value on the RPM display on the hand held.

The main heavy power wires run directly to the battery pos and neg terminals. The smaller ground wire goes to a screw on the chassis near the battery.

Cant hear the injectors fire on "key on" Is that a clicking sound? Never heard it? The fuel pump runs for 5 seconds as it is supposed to. We can see fuel pressure rapidly climb to 43 psi on the hand held.

I was wondering if the system was loosing the "on" signal during or after cranking. The hand held goes blank in key off. So we watched the hand held, the display stayed illuminated during on, and during cranking.

Can you hear the pumps fire when you turn the key on?
Are you reading 43psi at the regulator with the key on?

With the key on, we read, and adjusted, the fuel pressure regulator to 43 psi, by using the fuel pressure read out on the hand held display.

The regulator was factory set at 20psi. We adjusted it to 43 psi by using a Power Probe on the wire going to the fuel pump and basically hot wiring it. We have a hidden kill switch that will disable the fuel pump. Hot wired the pump using the power probe at the kill switch.

That is something to think through. The fuel pump flows to the injection unit first, giving the injection all the fuel it needs, then to the regulator IN/OUT port to maintain 43 psi. At the regulator there is a port for RETURN, which is the return line back to tank.

 

[5.7 hemi]

You need 12 volts at run and crank! Did you tie ign.1 and ign.2 together?

 

[Paul_G]

You need 12 volts at run and crank! Did you tie ign.1 and ign.2 together?

It is using Mopar factory electronic ignition with a ballast resistor. I dont remember which wire we conected the Fi "ignition on" to. But that may be the key. Cant wire ign 1 and ign 2 together while still using the factory ignition can we? On my car I have MSD ignition and did wire them together.

 

[5.7 hemi]

Yes you can. The ballast has to go.

 

[5.7 hemi]

I'm using the Summit brand MSD with their distributor and I have the Holley Terminator set up also. I connected 1 & 2 together at the ignition switch cause you now need 12 volts at run and crank with the efi.

 

[5.7 hemi]

You said in an earlier post that "hand held goes blank" while cranking. There is your problem. Connect 1&2 on the ignition switch together, make a jumper wire, it should fire.

 

[not so famous bob]

I'm using the Summit brand MSD with their distributor and I have the Holley Terminator set up also. I connected 1 & 2 together at the ignition switch cause you now need 12 volts at run and crank with the efi.

ur going thru the inj. unit then to the regulator ? is this a throttle body ? on my fast 2.0 that would be full fuel pump pressure to the throttle body. mine goes thru the reg., which has a gauge on it , then thru the 1200 cfm throttle body, then back to the tank.

 

[5.7 hemi]

I'm doing pump to tb, regulator and back to tank.

 

[Paul_G]

Yes you can. The ballast has to go.

I dont think it can. If we put battery voltage on the coil all the time it will blow the coil. I have seen that happen before. A guy jumped his failed ballast resistor and never replaced it. About a year like that and BANG! it blew the coil, and that was an MSD Blaster coil. The idea behind the ballast resistor is to reduce the voltage to the coil, except when cranking. Gets full battery voltage when cranking.

You said in an earlier post that "hand held goes blank" while cranking. There is your problem. Connect 1&2 on the ignition switch together, make a jumper wire, it should fire.

I have a relay we are going to try tomorrow. The relay will power the FI during both run and crank modes, without shorting them together

ur going thru the inj. unit then to the regulator ? is this a throttle body ? on my fast 2.0 that would be full fuel pump pressure to the throttle body. mine goes thru the reg., which has a gauge on it , then thru the 1200 cfm throttle body, then back to the tank.

Yes. This is the preferred way to plumb the fuel system. The regulator maintains 43 psi on the system at all times, only lets past what it doesn't need. As the FI starts consuming fuel, the regulator will reduce the amount of bypass to maintain 43 psi. The FI gets the fuel first so it will never starve. The Holley fuel pressure regulator has a port on each side marked "IN/OUT" they are common ports. We have one of them plugged off. I would assume that you could plumb the fuel pump in to one IN/OUT port, and the other IN/OUT port to the FI unit, and do about the same thing.

I sure hope the problem is ign1, ign2 related. Will find out tomorrow.

 

[5.7 hemi]

I did that on my uncles 70' RR and my dads 70' Challenger RT.

Google is your friend.

 

[Paul_G]

Solved one problem and another comes up.

Installed a relay under the dash to solve the ign1, ign2 problem. The relay coil will energize from the auxiliary circuit. Which means when the key is "ON", or in "AUX", the relay will be energized, but de-energized in the start position.

Using the normally closed contact on the relay to short ign1 and ign2.
Energizing the relay with the auxiliary circuit.
The fuel injection gets it's on signal from the run circuit.

I wired ign1 and ign2 circuits across the normally closed contact. So, when the key is in the "run" position the relay will be energized and the normally closed contacts will be open separating ign1 and ign2 as they should be, the fuel injection is getting the "on" signal from the "run" circuit. When the key is turned from "run" to "start", the aux circuit and the relay de-energize while starting the engine, the de-energized relay then closes the normally closed contacts on the relay, shorting ign1 and ign2 together. This way the fuel injection gets the "on" signal in "start" and "run", but ign1 and ign2 stay separated during normal "run", and short together for starting and to power the fuel injection during starting.

Easy right?

We got the engine started, but it ran like crap. Hunting for idle, smelled pig rich. We let it run up to temp, then shut down, let it cool, check for leaks, repeat. It actually kept running worse till it would no longer even idle.

When it would no longer even idle, we noticed the TPS was at 18% at closed throttle. It was at 0% at idle/closed throttle after the first TPS autotune. So we did the TPS autotune again. Could not get the TPS to go back to zero at closed throttle. As we ran the throttle from closed to open doing the autotune, we noticed at around 85% to 90% throttle opening the TPS would drop off to 0%, then pick back up, sometimes hitting 100% at full throttle, sometimes not.

I think the TPS took a dump on us. Mike is calling Holley this week.

I am not so sure I like fuel injection right now?

 

[5.7 hemi]

You can get the tps sensor at any parts store.

 

[ckessel]

I did a FAST tbi unit at work and I was amazed at how picky it was for having to have the distributor dead nuts so it could fire. Did my usual crank it over by hand, watch the valves, then watch for the intake to close then catch the 0 coming up on the balancer and get distributor set for one. Not close enough! Learned a trick from my boss: when the reluctor edge lines up with the magnetic pick up edge, then its spot on. Sure enough, did that too and bingo!

 

[petieg383]

Any update and pics on this setup???

 

[Paul_G]

Holley sent a new TPS to Mike, we installed it and the did the autotune. The engine fired right up and ran pretty decent.

The basic parameters that we put in the computer to make the engine run do just that, the engine runs. Mike has not put many drive miles on it yet to let it self learn. It's hot as hell right now. More miles should hopefully tame it down a little. I hope it smooths out as it self tunes.