Hyd. Flat Tappet Cam Recommendation?

Engine, Trans & Driveline

  1. Sweet5ltr

    Sweet5ltr Well-Known Member

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    Need some recommendations for a camshaft:

    Should I stick with the .509MP Camshaft with Edelbrock 84cc Heads, or go to a larger Hughes Flat Tappet with .569/.576 (1.5) lift? Desktop dyno is stating a gain of only 15 peak horsepower.

    Recommendations? I am talking to Comp Cams as we speak.
    Thanks in advance.

    Comp Recommends .545/.545 camshaft..
    I'm showing on Comp Cam Quest a 17HP Peak difference between the two camshafts at 6,000RPM.

    Seems like a lot of hassle to build an additional 15 horsepower or so?
     
  2. 67 B-body

    67 B-body Well-Known Member

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    What engine?
    I much prefer the mechanical flat tappet over hyd, but I'm an old school thinker.
    I had the MP509 in my 69 RR with a 1970 440HP at stock compression, and cast heads cleaned up a bit. It ran pretty good,,,, But my MP590 solid cam in my current build runs VERY strong! I'm not comparing apples to apples with the rest of the build, but that .590 solid cam sure seems to be working very well for me!
    I have always thought that you loose less torque with a solid camshaft profile "grind" compared to a similar hyd camshaft.
    I would be interested in knowing what the torque curve looks like between your 509 and the Comp cam recommended.
     
  3. rumblefish360

    rumblefish360 Well-Known Member

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    Well, a lot of this is up to you. The hassle is in simple research which is made a little easy with the dyno program. The only thing I can say for the MP shafts design is it is a little bit like a light switch in there not making power to bam there starting to make power. The "Other" cam shafts do not do this in such a noticeable way,but do it none the less.

    Taking advantage of the heads flow capabilities is what I like to do for my heavy hitting street strip rides. As you have noticed, the lower lifting cam is still making some good power. NOW, do you "Need" this for the street or yourself?
    (See, it is up to you now isn't it?!)

    The only draw back to a larger lifting cam is the valve springs wear out quicker since there under greater stress than the lower lifting springs. Set up of a high lift cam is more of a pain in the butt as it is more critical to make sure everything is perfect all the way through.
     
  4. rumblefish360

    rumblefish360 Well-Known Member

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    The loss of torque is more due to the profile design rather than tappet style.
     
  5. 67 B-body

    67 B-body Well-Known Member

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    Tappet design directly impacts available camshaft profile design....... A flat tappet solid can have a more aggressive ramp to gain higher lifts in shorter duration. Hyd lifters can and do start collapsing at higher lift rates and shorter duration that solid grinds and rollers provide. They also start loosing performance at the top end RPM when the spring rates needed for high lifts in conjunction with the rpm overcome the lifter cup pressure. This is seen when the power curve falls off sharply after fast steady rise during dyno runs.
    A good article showing some of this is available if you Google "440 mauler". I recommend this reading!:lurk:
     
  6. Sweet5ltr

    Sweet5ltr Well-Known Member

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    I'll post the screen shot! It was VERY surprising!
     
  7. Sweet5ltr

    Sweet5ltr Well-Known Member

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    Here are the HP numbers at 6,000RPM.. The .509 was a very good performer, with the .545 being the BEST choice if I was to install a new camshaft. The recommendation by Comp Cams was a very good choice. The top choice by cam quest was one of the WORST performers (for PEAK hp). This was very surprising, and I couldn't believe the .509 did as well as it did. Power under the peak was better with the 'newer' profiles, but the .509 really was competitive. The .509 was overall a "good" camshaft. The .545 would be a "great" camshaft. W/ 1.6RR the .509 camshaft made 557HP.


    .509/.509 Purple Shaft Camshaft (550HP/Comp Nostalgia .509 Camshaft made -6hp, .484 mopar -25hp)
    509campng.png
    .545/.545 Competition Camshaft (548HP)
    545campng.png
    .564/.564 Competition Camshaft (551HP)
    564campng.png
    .525/.525 Competition Camshaft (528HP)
    525campng.png
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  8. Meep-Meep

    Meep-Meep дворянин

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    Don't get hung up on lift specs but pay more attention to your actual compression ratio, car weight, rear end gears, how you intend to use the car, what gas you want to run safely and so on. If you want a nice street performer that can still hold up well for track use then get a cam with about 112 deg of lobe separation. Limit your compression to 9.5:1 and rear end gearing at 3.23 - 3.55. If you want a more aggressive mid range / top end then look for some more overlap like a 108-110 LC cam and a corresponding bump in compression. Of course the extra compression will require higher octane and the hotter cam will want more gear. All that other stuff mentioned about needing stiffer valve springs for the big cam is true. It all comes at a price. But if you just want to warm up the 440 a bit you don't need to do much at all to have great results.
     
  9. Sweet5ltr

    Sweet5ltr Well-Known Member

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    Meep,
    This was mainly a comparison of an ancient .509 camshaft vs. some of the latest and greatest. I was deciding if the performance of a higher lift hyd. flat tappet was worth considering. This is EXACTLY my combination in Desktop Dyno, and not just random numbers. If I go to a larger camshaft, it will probably be later on and in the form of a solid roller. I didn't see enough improvement with the larger hyd. flat tappet camshafts at the RPM range I am considering.
     
  10. Sweet5ltr

    Sweet5ltr Well-Known Member

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    I went with the Comp Cams XE285HL (285/297 Dur.) .545/.545 lift! Should be here tomorrow. I may be optimistic, but looking at some of the engine combo's; I am hoping to be somewhere around the 540-550HP range.
     
  11. rumblefish360

    rumblefish360 Well-Known Member

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    A lot depends on the cams being used and the profile there ground with. What your doing with the cam at hand and the package it is in. It is a no brainer in what you say. Do not point to one article and call it gospel and use it as ammo. Flawed thinking you have. Perhaps you need to spend time in a dyno room and not a dyno sim or mag's. :homework:
    I understand well.
    Take it with a gain of salt.

    Also, due take note of the grinds and there ramps the way there cut as well as intended design of the cam, not to mention era of design. You Hyd. cam choices are still a low lift design with long duration's designed for pocket ported heads and at best, gasket matching. (MP cam.)

    The new grinds are far superior. But still low lift.

    Looks like your having fun with this stuff. The sim's are great learning tools.
     
  12. 67 B-body

    67 B-body Well-Known Member

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    Are you refering to my post with the flawed thinking???:angry1:

    Now that I've read your post again, I'm sure your retoric comment was in fact directed towards me. I can say for certain that my post in which you comment "It is a no brainer in what you say" certainly shows quite the opposite in your own words in a previous post. This is in fact why I made the statement.... Again, A solid flat tappet camshaft is most commonly ground with a higher rate of lift do to it's mechanical abilities DIRECTLY resulting from the solid lifter design and abilities itself.
    When I post to a member "other than you" a design characteristic, why would you feel compeled to argue against it, then a few posts later say I'm stating the obvious, and that I should spend more time in a Dyno room, and also insinuate that a good read that I referanced was claimed as Gospil, and further more, used as ammo????
    Re-think your words and try again..... If your objective is to find someone to disslike you personaly, then your on your way.... Why would anyone do this????
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2012
  13. 67 B-body

    67 B-body Well-Known Member

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    While I'm thinking about your words rumblefish,,,, Before making agusations on someone else’s knowledge by implying he or she has "flawed thinking" you should first understand who it is your speaking to. I do NOT have flawed thoughts,,, and you should understand that I have spent a lot of time and money earning multiple degrees, one of which is automotive technology mechanical engineering, and the other in electrical engineering specializing in robotics which I use every day working with companies such as Kraft Foods, Kimberly Clark, Johns Manville,, the list goes on... I am paid for my knowledge and design projects worth millions of dollars each. You border line on being grossly offensive when you choose to make such remarks directly towards an individual. And yes,,, my remarks are now directly pointed towards you and I'm certain rightfully so..... I will now digress from this conversation, but not without letting you know that your words were un warranted and un called for.
     
  14. Sweet5ltr

    Sweet5ltr Well-Known Member

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    I was taking the "sims" as a grain of salt to begin with, but as an engine is a air pump in all actuality; the sims can hold partial truth when given all the correct information. The Comp XE285XL had a fantastic torque curve throughout the RPM Range that I was looking for and made excellent power. YES, we all understand that this is a simulation and can only be valid as such; but without going in depth it is a useful tool to validate a camshafts performance in comparison to another design when no other resources are available (much better than a shot in the dark). I also called Hughes last week, and given my cars information and what exactly I was looking for; Hughes also pointed to a very similar spec'ed grind of their own in relation to the Competition Camshaft.

    DONT COME ON MY THREAD TO ARGUE! :argue:
    I don't care if your a Mechanical, Electrical, Aerospace, or an Industrial Engineer. We all hold different positions on the outside, but loving and driving MOPARS are what sets us apart from the rest and gives us commonality. Their is no reason a grown man should get offended or make remarks against another members response to a thread and if you disagree, please send the original poster a message and state your opinion (being that is exactly what it is) and your own personal recommendations. Once again, DO NOT come on MY THREAD and confront an individual and state their information as being incorrect, etc. I respect and value every members ideas and thoughts on a given topic, and I do not put one members opinion above any others or place a higher precedence on its content than the rest. Rumblefish, the next time you disagree with someone; do it in a private message. 67 B-Body, Their is no reason to get frustrated with internet board members. With all that being said, GET OUT AND DRIVE YOUR MOPARS AND GET OFF THE PC!



    Thank you for everyone who responded.-Korey
     
  15. 67 B-body

    67 B-body Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Sweet,,, I was just coming in to the forum to apologize for the rebutal towards the un needed remarks.
    Your right, I should have sent a PM with my concerns regarding the issues.
    Once again,
    Sorry for using your thread as a means of putting someone in there place. It will not happen again...
    Happy Moparing and I wish you the best with your camshaft choice......
     
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    • Sweet5ltr

      Sweet5ltr Well-Known Member

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      67,
      Their was no hard feelings being placed in that response! I understood completely where you were coming from. Thank you for all the help and for that great article. I will be putting a solid flat tappet cam in the car next, and I will be coming to you for your recommendations! I now have found out I have an abundance of PTV clearance. Previously I was unaware that CME installed pistons with 'canyon sized' valve reliefs. Compression is going to be around 10.9:1-11:1 with the 84cc heads.
       
      Last edited: Apr 16, 2012
    • 67 B-body

      67 B-body Well-Known Member

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      I am ALWAYS happy to pass along any and all information I have gathered throughout the years. Also check out some of the electrical drawings I published for clean safe wiring. I also created a degree wheel you can print, stick it on a piece of cardboard and throw away when done.
       
    • rumblefish360

      rumblefish360 Well-Known Member

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      In response to the below, offensive? So sorry you read it as offensive. Feeling Guilty of something?
      LO< I'll tell ya what, we can argue this else where and after I prove you wrong and show you the way and fix your thinking, you can first apologize to the OE poster for your mis-information and then, if your nice, I'll let you come to the family shop. If your nice, I'll let you touch the Wally's on the wall.


      YOU, put me IN MY PLACE!?!?!?!?


      LMFAO at the ridiculous thought of some ill conceived thought from a wanna be motorhead internet hero.

      (Now there is your insult to hate me on and the only one I wrote worthy of it all.)

      The true problem here is;

      1. Your convinced
      2. Your not thinking this through
      3. You assume to much about camshafts
      4. You assumed wrongly about myself on multi levels
      5. You think I insult you for what ever reason
      6. I insulted you once and only once. You read my reply wrongly.


      You degrees from this convo? OK, we'll just agree to disagree. Hate me if ya want, I really do not care. Once you actually do some homework and not just enuff to cover or prove your point of view or support what you believe to be true, then you can come back to this topic and say, yep, that guy was right. Not all solids are ground to be more aggressive than Hyd. cams are. There are Hyd. cams more aggressive than solids.
      You'll be saying, "retoric comment" was from yourself, not me. just making use of the words, "retoric comment" just proved to me you didn't do your homework.

      Go ahead, look, you'll find it.

      Have a good one bro.

      To the OE poster, do your homework, not just internet guru chats on what they think and believe to be the best. I'm not here to start chit, but to offer help in getting you the right information to what is actually out there.
      Not just what is listed in the catalogs and there semi hidden back pages.
       
    • rumblefish360

      rumblefish360 Well-Known Member

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      OE poster, while a post or two may seem to contradict each other, perhaps I should have made myself crystal clear. I think it probably beyond the point now and someone else would just argue and muddy up the thread beyond repair at this point.

      Choose your cam wisely. Then again, the difference in power is so small between a set of 30 grinds, you'll never feel the difference. To much effort is put on a street cam. Now, if you were racing for the money..............
       
    • Sweet5ltr

      Sweet5ltr Well-Known Member

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      I spoke with two cam manufactures, talked to summit racing, narrowed down my selection to two-three potential camshafts, researched those three camshafts, compared listed specs, and let the desktop dyno give me somewhat of an idea of the power potential of each; then selected the one with the best overall numbers that matched my powerband. I would say I have done my homework, and the rest of the classes as well!
       
      Last edited: Apr 18, 2012
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