HYD. Roller lifters , which one?

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  1. Dan64

    Dan64 Well-Known Member

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    Ok so this isn't a race car but i'm asking this here because this seems to be where the engine builders are . I'm looking for input as to which brand you guys have used and would use again on the right build. Comp , morel, Howard's ( which may be just be morel) Trick Flow ( which may be Howard's which may be morel) or Gaterman . Quick run down on engine. 493 ,10:1, Trick Flow 270 ,Indy plane d.p.m.max wedge. Carb not bought yet but thinking Brawler 850 ?. Cam is Erson hyd.roller 250/258 @ 50 ,110, .548 lift but will use Harland Sharp 1.6 on the intake so should be around .600 .2" TTI 's with 3" full exhaust. I understand that most of you guys build with solid rollers or sft cams as you are building for max hp. This car will be street driven to shows/cruises and maybe see the track a couple of times a year. The original goal was for around 625+ hp and torque. Any help or advice is appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
  2. biomedtechguy

    biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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    I just spoke with IQ52 aka Jim Laroy today about his disdain for hydraulic lifters. Seems like he has experienced some problems with them, and that has any hydraulic lifter on his verboten list.
    Before I got his sage advice, I put a hydraulic roller cam and lifters from CompCams in the 421 Tripower in our 65 GTO. Zero problems, great performance.
    Having said that, the CompCams hydraulic FT lifters that I put in my warmed up 440+6bbl, as well as their springs, locks, and retainers, that replaced worn springs and crappy lifters have been absolutely flawless in performance, and I spin my factory steel crank heavy rods 440 to 6,200 because it demands that I do.
    They've unleashed the beast that the cam and a few other basic mods have made my 440+6.
     
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    • Dan64

      Dan64 Well-Known Member

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      I get that a solid is better for a race motor and maybe a street motor as well (depending on who you ask) but the engine builder feels that in this build the hyd. rollers will work well . Cam is already bought and will be used so it just comes down to which lifters at this point. Glad to hear the comps are working for your current motor , are they noisy ?.
       
    • biomedtechguy

      biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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      No noise at all, and because the 421 has the Ram Air 2 exhaust manifolds, which have a header like design, the engine is not buried in header noise, so I know. Very quiet operation.
       
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      • bearman

        bearman FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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        Solid is the best choice. Shows and small cruises nothing but good times and not under the hood every other weekend.
         
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        • bearman

          bearman FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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          I do like the 1.6 rockers
           
        • bearman

          bearman FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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          Dan are you having the lifter bores bushed.
           
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          • 33 IMP

            33 IMP FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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            There is an engine masters episode where they ran a hydraulic roller cam with both hyd. rollers and solid rollers, to see if it would work, and also if it made more power. They decided it can be done, and also would give more power,IF the hyd. rollers were "less than great". They were impressed with the hyd rollers they tested, which were ( wow, now I don't remember for sure) Crane or Crower. I have heard opinions both ways on comp cams versions.
             
          • Dodge 330

            Dodge 330 Well-Known Member

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            Howards here.

            7,000 street miles and hundreds of street passes. Very happy!

            Avoid Comp's hydraulic rollers!
             
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            • Dan64

              Dan64 Well-Known Member

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              How high do you turn your motor?. I think i'll be all done 6200-6400 ish? maybe less with my combo. Hard to understand how it seems like every other brand can run hyd. rollers in a hot street car but no love for them in the mopar world. What are the LS guys spinning 7k,87? with hyd. rollers. I do get that bb mopar's never came with them and are probably a little heaver but you would think that you could at least get a reliable 6500 rpm out of them . Thank you for the input on the Howard's ,are they noisy at all?.
               
            • Dan64

              Dan64 Well-Known Member

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              Thank you for that ,i've heard that Crane made good ones years ago but sold the tooling to make them during a buy-out? , idk. Long shot ,but does anyone know if Gatorman and the old crane's are the same? , they both out of Florida right?.
               
            • Dan64

              Dan64 Well-Known Member

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              Anybody use the Morel Hi-rpm bb mopar hyd. lifters?.
               
            • 68 HEMI GTS

              68 HEMI GTS Well-Known Member

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              I actually have a set of the old cranes. I could post pics if you find some of the gatorman to compare too.
               
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              • 440rb

                440rb Well-Known Member

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                You can go either way, you can go solid roller lifters on a hyd. roller cam, many do that after having had enough of the hassle with hyd. lifters, you only need them to pump UP once@6k+, bleed down issues are another thing. I'm not a fan of anything hyd. in a motor thats gonna see over 6k rpm.
                 
                Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
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                • biomedtechguy

                  biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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                  I've been reading AndyF 's "How to Build Max Performance Mopar Big Blocks" and I just happen to be in the "camshafts and lifters" section. He writes a well matched hydraulic roller cam and lifters has a reliable range up to 6-7k RPM.
                  EDIT: See photo of relevant paragraph. He mentions that Max Wedge ports peak around 6,500 RPMs and that a solid FT or solid roller cam would be better. Hopefully AndyF doesn't mind that one excerpt photo. I certainly wouldn't publish his book without permission.
                  20191217_102352.jpg
                  In the previous chapter on valvetrains, it seems that lift of .650 or below is the range where "special" parts are not required to make the geometry work, although aftermarket components certainly are.
                  I would agree. Is that your anticipated redline? I don't know modified stroker engines or cam specs well enough to know what the power band of your engine is based on what you have posted.
                  Since you have decided to go with a hydraulic roller cam and lifters, the focus of the replies I guess should be on what is the best brand of hydraulic roller lifters.
                  I'll repeat that the CompCams hydraulic roller cam and lifters in the Pontiac 421 Tripower have been flawless in operation. The rev limiter on that engine is set at 5,900 RPM because of calculated piston speed, and other factors.
                  Also although they are not roller lifters, my hydraulic flat tappet CompCams lifters have been fantastic, and reliably operate up to 6,200 RPMs with these CompCams springs: 911-16 Valve Springs, Single, 1.524 in. Outside Diameter, 373 lbs./in. Rate, 1.200 in. Coil Bind Height, Set of 16
                  https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-911-16
                   
                  Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
                • 440rb

                  440rb Well-Known Member

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                  • biomedtechguy

                    biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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                  • 440rb

                    440rb Well-Known Member

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                    :p:D
                     
                  • Dan64

                    Dan64 Well-Known Member

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                    Thanks for posting that ,those are the Morel hi- rpm hyd. rollers that i'm leaning toward. As mentioned in the tread a cam with .580 lift was showing oil getting past it on most and a cam with .610 showed one leaking past. The guy building my engine wanted to keep the lift on the cam a little lower so he went with .548 lift and then 1.6 Harland Sharp to get the rest of the lift closer to 600. Just wondering if the .548 will keep them low enough as to not have oiling problems. They rate those to 7k so maybe they'll get me to 6500. He also mentioned running them set at .20 ish but wanted to verify a few things first. This is the first bb mopar build that i've been involved with so i'm learning a lot .
                     
                  • biomedtechguy

                    biomedtechguy Accelerati Rapidus Maximus FBBO Gold Member

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                    My desired maintenance schedule (as little as possible) for the stroker I'm planning to have built would point me toward hydraulic lifters, and I think that hydraulic roller lifters are pretty much maintenance free, unlike the impression I'm getting that solid roller lifters are going to require a "rebuild" at some point.
                    BUT
                    Because I respect Jim Laroy's admonition to not use hydraulic lifters, that points toward solid flat tappet lifters. The larger diameter of the Mopar lifter, I have read many times, lends to its ability to handle a steeper ramp than smaller ones, so that's a plus. The other factors are I don't put a lot of miles on the Roadrunner, and modern valvetrains tend to be stable, so lash adjustment should be an occasional issue rather than something that has to be done often. If my builder says that a solid roller will have a maintenance schedule I can live with, and that a solid roller would have major advantages over a solid flat tappet cam because of the inherent nature of a roller cam, that has to be taken into consideration, but I refer back to the larger diameter of the Mopar lifter, so a solid FT could get me all of the performance I need, rare valve lash settings, and no need to rebuild, and probably less spring pressure too.
                     
                    Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
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