just found serious rust on my front frame rails

[Robliepse]

Well, here we go. What started as an alignment on my 72 GTX turned into an entire front end rebuild. Since I'm in not in a big hurry I slightly lifted the engine and removed the K member to clean it up. That's where the fun started. I broke out my wire wheel tonight to clean up the frame rails around the shock towers and found some serious rust. It appears that someone in the past had welded a patch on the inside of the rail but the rail is in pretty bad shape. Over the past hour or so and a couple of cold beers I removed enough dirt and rust chunks from the frame drain holes to fill a couple of quart jars. Before posting this I searched the prior post and found a link to autorust.com and they appear to have patch parts to fix this without totally replacing the rails. Does anyone have any experience with autorust? Please send me your thought and advice on the best way to fix this. It's a real numbers matching 1972 440 GTX and I'm working towards a very nice driver car and I don't have crazy dreams of building a TV auction lottery car.

I'll post some pictures tomorrow

 

[Donny]

This is bad news for sure. But, I think you have your answer! Since you said it's a real GTX, then, it's worth fixing -- right! Why fix it crappy when you CAN fix it good and properly? Some of those TV auction cars never were fixed correctly, just quickly -- watch enough of the TV shows on Velocity and you'll see a pattern of corner cutting all the time. Having a bad Frame rail usually means there's other bad areas too, this is normal, but, as I said, it is fixable. Capping the Frame rails with the Rust fix it caps is ugly and never clean. I know, I Media Blast these cars all the time, and, I see the after effects of this work; the entire Frame rail eventually comes off out of necessity. Good luck!

 

[Robliepse]

Thanks Donny, so your vote would be no on the cap and look for a replacement? I know there's other issues too and I'm fixing them one st a time

 

[Propwash]

Have a pic? My 2 cents....... The front frame rails on these cars are notorious for filling up with garbage and rotting from the inside out, especially the drivers side (see's the most dust, dirt, wash up from the road), and especially around the shock towers. As far as changing out the rail, it's about the most technically challenging thing you can do on these cars. It needs to be installed perfectly up/down, left/right. If not, you would run into all kinds of real serious issues.....alignment, stability, panel fit, handling. As far as the caps, from A.R.T. safety caps, they're ok....Not a real organized group of folks and you will have some fit issues as well as some modifications to make them work. I put a set of torsion bar caps on a coronet. It was no walk in the park (because of fit). If I were you I would take a good long assessment of what you got left there. Try to find out where the rotten metal ends and good begins, and see if a patch is suitable. Myself I wouldn't cover over with a cap (being it will just continue to rot from the inside out), but would graft/patch in 14 gauge steel as a replacement. Use a stick welder or a decent HD MIG welder for full penetration. Done correctly it will have no issue being just as sound as an original rail. A weld pic hammer, drilling small holes, major elbow grease with a wire wheel or hitting the metal and listening to the repercussion are all good ways to identify good/bad metal. If you were able to save the rail, by all means you need to get inside it and clean it up the best you can, Use a decent internal panel coating to stop and prevent further damage. If your rail is just too far gone...well rail change it is. Prepare yourself for a lot of work, take a ton of measurements and then take them again. If you're doubting your skill set and experience to change it out, I would really recommend taking it to a professional. A bad rail change can ruin a car. Don't want to scare you, just being honest. Best of luck, hope it pans out for you.

 

[poly3521]

I had the same problem. I bought a full rail on ebay from rocpar. Nice fit. I think its an e body frame rail.

 

[Robliepse]

Thanks Propwash, that was my thought too and I'm going to look into autorust.com patch panels and work on patching the rails.


poly3521, did you change the entire rail ? I can get a good solid donor car but I'm concerned about all the issues Propwash mentioned

- - - Updated - - -

http://autorust.com/frk.pdf

http://autorust.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=116&zenid=nm6gppqnak0554uqcb1rlfp112

Kinda expensive but might be a good solution. I'm going to give them a call to get some additional information. Looks like it would take a lot of prep and cleaning and sealing the inside of the rail will be a pain in the butt. Has anyone ever used these rails?

 

[Robliepse]

rusty pictures



Here's some pictures of the frame rail rust and the pile or dirt and rusted metal that I pulled out of the drain hole

 

[kb67mopar]

That is not truly that bad. I would drill the spot welds off the brake hose bracket and pull that off. then cut a recangular section out where the rust holes are - go about 2-4 inches past where you think the rust ends (trust me...you'll cut out more than you thought). Then weld in a new section in the hole. Do the same for the bottom of the rail (after you finish the side) and it will be nice and strong again. It looks like you had water sitting in that section and ate it away, if the rest of the rail feels and sounds solid there is no need to do open heart surgery and replace the whole thing. Whenever you open it up look inside and seal up what you can with paint.

 

[mattsmopars]

May just be the pictures, but it looks like it already has had a patch welded down one side. Appears to be on the other side than the side pictured. Looks like you may need a rail. IMO
Matt

 

[Robliepse]

yes, there's an older patch on the inside or the rail with a big hole in front of it. Besides this one terrible area the rest or the rail appears to be solid. I've owned the car for about 7 weeks now and I'm finding good and bad. The guy I bought it from is being totally cool and he was not mechanically inclined and was being taken advantage of by a local show. he bought the car in 2006 on E Bay sight unseen and quickly realized he got screwed. My guess is the car sat for a while in a high rust area and someone picked it up, patched the bare minimums, bought a few gallons of bonds and applied their first ever paint job and sold it to the previous owner. I verified the VIN to the cowling stamp, the radiator support and I have the original broadcast sheet. I also verified it's the correct block casting numbers, intake and exhaust manifold casting numbers on the good running 440. From what I can tell it's a real numbers matching 1972 440 Roadrunner with a very nice all original interior, complete non working factory air and I paid $13,500.

 

[flypaper]

you have a car that is worth a few bucks and you have a good amount invested in it.
stay far away from a rust cap
it is a cheap ugly band aid that fixes nothing and it devalues your ride.
all it does is cover over the problem,it doesn't make it go away.

either patch or replace,don't cover over it.
i would replace it if it was me.
its not that hard to find a orig donar rail to use
i have a extra pass side one layin around myself..

 

[Ron Ward]

You've got it easy.... check out my passenger side rail.

 

[Bruzilla]

I would agree with Donny that you should have it fixed "right", but you also said this is going to be a driver car, and this is an area that no one but you is likely ever going to see, so do you want to spend $$$$$$ fixing it "right" or $ making it safe and driveable? I can think of a whole lotta stuff I can spend my money on making my car better than going full bore on a rust issue underneath it.

I would go with the caps. It won't be original, or as smooth and pretty as fixing it "right", but who cares since no one's gonna see it. Take those extra $$$$$ and put them into something nicer in the interior or on the sheet metal.

 

[Robliepse]

I talked to my friend Ricky who owns an automotive / body shop and I'm going to put the suspension back on the car good enough to get it on a trailer and bring it to his shop. He is going to cut the rust out like KB67MOPAR described above. Ricky has the experience and tools to it right. Once it's all welded up I'll finalize the suspension and get the alignment that started this project.....

 

[Photon440]

A couple of articles about the 'Auto Rust Technicians' frame repair covers.

http://autorust.com/m_torq.html

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/mopp_0712_mopar_framerail_repair/viewall.html

 

[snakeoil24]

I have done a few of these rail replacements. It is a great deal of preparation. First thing is you need a square Dolly that is checked for level on three planes front back left to right right o left in front. You need a water level to seet up the car. These where built without the motor or drive train in the car so ridgid set up is a must. Tjhe auto rust product is simply a patch. Doing this right is painful but worth the time and effort. For the cost of a new rail from AMD, with shock tower a must you can only expect to take ito a frame shop once your done to get the final straightness. Do it right like donny and wash said.

 

[71charger_fan]

Here's my right front frame rail with the autorust technicians piece installed.

 

[poly3521]

It's alot of work to change the rail. There wasn't anything holding the back of the k frame. A bunch of spot welds, welds on the shock tower, and it comes out. I have mine leveled with jack stands under the axle and a 2x6 under the rocker. Measure everything to see how square everything is, the fsm has the specs, but you need a few more before you start. I'll try to get some pics of mine. I got alittle overboard and am changing the torsion bar crossmember and front floor. The big concern I had was how thin it was. a 6 inch hole makes out wonder. After cutting mine out, even where the bumper bolts was thin. I wasn't taking the chance, safety first, do it right. I bought a new rail on Ebay. E body rail seems to fit perfect, most of the front sheet metal is the same as an e body. Hope this helps. Will try to upload pics later.

 

[poly3521]

Here's how I cribbed it. I checked it with a level at the tail panel, cowl, and radiator support. Also checked front to back on the rocker.



Here's what I started with.



Notice the Cheesy patch job done long before I owned it. Purely cosmetic.


You have to remember what all attaches to the rail, and it is a structural member under heavy load and torque. I wouldn't just patch it and drive it. My life and my family's lives are worth more than that.

 

[satman72]

I would do the frame properly. If it's bad, replace it. It is the backbone of the car.