Matching Numbers defined

General Mopar Tech Discussions

  1. 69 Runner

    69 Runner ADMIN wif a corner office (Deceased - RIP)

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    696pack posted this in another thread and suggested it should be a sticky. So with that in mind and thanks to Darryl.........

    Matching numbers means different thing to MAKES of cars and different model year cars.

    Here is a definition for MOPARS :

    1. The first thing you want to check is the V.I.N. of the vehicle against the title or in some states the registration.

    2. The second thing to check is the fender tag against the body codes.
    A. For 1968 and older vehicles , the S.O. number is stamped on the body.
    B. For 1969 and newer vehicles , the V.I.N. number is stamped on the body.

    3. The next thing to check is the fender tag against the S.O. number or the V.I.N. in the "hidden numbers" locations on the body. You will find thes numbers in different loctations depending on the model year and body platform.
    A. 1966-68 will have the S.O. number on the upper portion drivers side radiator core support.
    B. 1966-67 MAY also have it on the drivers side rear body cross member that the bumper support bolts to.
    C. 1968 will also have it stamped on the driver's side trunk opening lip under the weather stripping.
    D. 1969 and newer vehicles will have the V.I.N. stamped on the driver's side upper portion of the radiator core support.
    E. 1969 and newer B bodies also have it stamped on the driver's side trunk opening lip under the weather stripping.
    F. 1970 E bodies will have it stamped on the driver's side cowl near the vent cover and will NOT have it on the driver's side trunk opening lip under the weather stripping.


    4. The next item that is VERY important to numbers matching is the engine. For all 1967 and older engines (including low performance 1968 engines) you have to date the engine prior to the scheduled production date of the vehicle.
    A. Small block engines (273-318-340-360) have the date stamped on the front of the below the driver's side cylinder head.
    B. Big block B engines (383-400) have the date stamped on the front of the below the passenger's side cylinder head.
    C. Big block RB engines have the (413-426-440) have the date stamped on the front of the block in front of the intake manifold ajacent to the distrbutor. This is true for all 1964-1967 Hemi engines.
    D. Big block 426 RB engines have the date stamped on the oil pan rail at the rear flange under the starter. This is true for all 1968 383 & 440 engines.

    For 1969 and newer engines (including 1968 high performance engines) a full or partial V.I.N. is stamped on the engine block.
    E. 1968 HP engines are stamped on the top rear of the block near the oil sending unit.
    F. 1969 and newer V8 engines are stamped on pad at the lower passenger side of the block above the oil pan.

    Note: Early in the 1969 model year the complete 13 digit was stamped on the engine and transmission. mid year 1969 and later engines only the last 8 digits of the V.I.N. were stamped on the engine and transmission.

    5. The next item that is important to numbers matching is the transmission.
    For 1969 and newer engines (including high performance 1968 engines) a full of parial V.I.N. is stamped on the transmission case.
    A. 1968 and newer manual transmissions are stamped on a raised pad on the passenger side of the case.
    B. 1968 only automatic transmissions (high performance V8) are stamped on the top front of the case where it meets the engine.
    C. 1969 and newer automatic transmissions are stamped on a raised pad on the passenger side front of the case.

    6. The last item that relates to numbers matching is the door V.I.N. decal.
    For 1970 and newer vehicles (including 1969 Daytonas) the door V.I.N. decal is on the driver's side door jamb.

    The above definition comes from GGs white books.
    It is pretty much word for word except that I left out his references to where to find this info in his other books, and I changed #3 as HIS info was referring to contacting him for matching V.I.N.s in HIS registry.

    As you can see, It becomes more involved with more numbers to check the newer the car gets. It is also confusing for people because the "hidden numbers" are different depending on the year of the car as to the factories use of S.O. numbers and V.I.N. You will notice that there is no V.I.N. located on the engine or transmission for 1967 and older AND this also applies to 1968 models as they were randomly stamped with the V.I.N. thoughout the model year with apparently no rhyme or reason.

    Depending on who you talk to and how they view things in life, (weather the glass is 1/2 full or 1/2 empty,) they will argue as to the numbers matching engine and transmission on a 68 and older vehicle since it has no V.I.N. stamped on them. MY OPINION on this is that if the casting date of the engine and transmission proceeds the scheduled production date of the vehicle that they MATCH. After all who can DISPROVE that they are not the ORIGINALS.

    You will notice that NONE of this references broadcast sheets as they were never intended to be purposely left in the vehicles and were certainly never intended to be use by the public for any I.D.ing purposes.

    It also has nothing to do with identifing re-stamping done by others AFTER the vehicle LEFT the factory new. This is done more often than some people think and it is important to know since many people advertise cars that are matching numbers that in fact ARE, but NOT THE ORIGINAL ENGINE OR TRANSMISSION. They are not lying to anyone but it is something people need to know as they are two different things.
     
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    • Elvad

      Elvad Well-Known Member

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      Wow, that is an incredible amount of information, I am impressed. I own a factory big block b-body with A/C. ( 1972 Satellite Sebring Plus )The original tranny is long gone, the original engine is on a pallet in my garage and was overheated by the previous owner to the point of running on maybe 5 cylinders when I got it. The matching numbers stuff is cool but these cars are so rare now I am just happy to still have one. I bought this car in 1988 for $400. It will never be a show car or any numbers matching anything but I still have one!!
       
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      • RobLam

        RobLam Member

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        At what point is numbers matching more desired , I have a 1966 plymouth satellite convertable with a 318 poly ,engine needs extensive rebuilding . gunked up real bad .has been sitting for 30 years,i have a 440 engine and trans in good working order . my question is will a more desirable motor (440) swap lower the value ? will the pukey non performance 318 poly engine rebuild (gaskets and hard to find parts) cost me more than what ever i could lose to numbers matching?
         
      • 696pack

        696pack Well-Known Member

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        As far as value for a 1966 plymouth satellite convertible goes, unless it is a factory Hemi or a 383-4 car a 440 over any other engine will increase it's value. No one is going to pay anymore (and likely less) for a numbers matching /6, 273, or 318 in that car.
         
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        • bluefury

          bluefury Well-Known Member

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          date codes......

          Great information here......

          I might add, (for the real original purists), that the glass is also date coded to the car in the form of acid etching. Look for the pentastar and the codes are below.... If the glass is interchangable from left to right the etching will read correctly on one side and backward on the other.
           
        • bluefury

          bluefury Well-Known Member

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          At what point is numbers matching more desired , I have a 1966 plymouth satellite convertable with a 318 poly ,engine needs extensive rebuilding . gunked up real bad .has been sitting for 30 years,i have a 440 engine and trans in good working order . my question is will a more desirable motor (440) swap lower the value ? will the pukey non performance 318 poly engine rebuild (gaskets and hard to find parts) cost me more than what ever i could lose to numbers matching?


          As for the original poly 318 versus a 440.......
          I have owned and driven supercars since the 60's and back in the day one only had to pull into a Sunoco gas station for 100 octain leaded fuel... and cheap too.

          Not so true now.... The cost of "proper" fuel is astromical and it's hard to find. One almost has to go back to the time before gas pumps and buy fuel in a can.... and put it in the tank with a funnel.... LOL... Then factor in the poor gas mileage you'll get with the 440.........

          Parts to rebuild a poly 318 are still plentiful, (no matter what you build it should have hardened valve seats installed).

          The freshly built original poly 318 in my 65 Coronet makes the car a joy to drive. Smooth, quiet and economical, (18-20 MPG on regular gas). I drive my car to several long distance events every summer and would hate to be spending my "FUN" cash on extra tanks of expensive high octain gas. And for what....? So you can risk everything trying to beat some yahoo in a street race....? HUMmmmmmmmm. I guess I've beating everyone I need to.... LOL.

          I suppose a lot has to do with how you intend to use your car. If you enjoy creating a spectacle....smoking the tires.... making a lot of noise.... then the 440 is the way to go
          But if being able to enjoy your car as it was meant to be enjoyed, (top down cruising), everyone admires a convertible weather you can smoke the tires or not.

          As for value.... A 440 will more likely appeal to some, but the old poly 318, if original to your car, will also be attractive to others. The trend is that it is becoming more and more expensive to build and operate our cars. 15-20 years from now they will likely all be museum pieces. So if you decide to go the big engine route but keep the car original.... save that 318.
          If properly rebuilt the matching 318 poly will likely have the same value as the car with a non-original 440. It depends on how you view it.
           

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          Last edited: Feb 21, 2011
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          • eagle1969

            eagle1969 Member

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            so after looking at my car I noticed the vin on the dash and the numbers on the rad support are not the same.I have a 69 RR convert am I to think the support was changed? Will those #s tell me anything on the support or are they just sequence #s
             
          • bluefury

            bluefury Well-Known Member

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            match....

            so after looking at my car I noticed the vin on the dash and the numbers on the rad support are not the same.I have a 69 RR convert am I to think the support was changed?


            If your looking in the right place, (driver side, engine side of support,) the numbers should be 2 digits, a space and then 6 digits, Stamped upside down which will match the last 8 digits of the VIN.

            If not matched then, baring a factory screwup, either the dash VIN tag has been changed or the core support has be changed. There is also the fender tag number and left side trunk rail number to consider.
             
          • myke1971

            myke1971 Active Member

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            Documentation & value

            I think its all about wow, kool car, and money on the most part. 2 most!
            Numbers matching is a desire of some to say, its FACTORY CORRECT.
            As too what a person whats-- Big block,Color, Interior, is a preferance thing, only but a few care about NUMBERS.
            I have 3 correct cars, down to every detail, yet they will bring what a person is willing to Pay for the NUMBERS MATCHING thing, and Documentation from a known source, to add Value, Plus a Great story of History etc..or how Rare it is.
            Gavin said he never seen anything like it before,as to 2 vin plates>SSP-RR- Special Production Y39.
            Yet the car is like most, no big freaky WOWS, to most, but there are those willing to pay for STORY BEHIND IT.. P.S the PLATES are worth MONEY, the car is no big thing.
             
            Last edited: Jan 26, 2012
          • 696pack

            696pack Well-Known Member

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            The numbers matching thing probably really got it's start with the GM people. They were not lucky enough back in the 60s-early 70s to have the model and engine coded in their V.I.N.s like Mopars did. So I think that until the Mopars suddenly became recognized for their rarity in production numbers for the old hipo cars compared to the great number of competing models in GM and Ford cars the numbers thing was not a big deal to Mopar people. It still isn't with anyone with half of a brain. The reason I say this is because for those who think that all of the cars out there that are tauted to be original engine cars they are just ignorant of what has/is going on for 30+ years or niave.

            The above sticky that I wrote long ago is directed at Mopars. The below I wrote long ago regarding the market in general for "matching numbers."



            Numbers matching means many different things to people.

            This all leads me to explain what you need to know when reading an ad for an old car for sale.

            When it states it is "numbers matching" it can mean:

            1. The title and V.I.N. plate match
            2. It has a matching numbers engine
            3. It has a matching numbers trans
            4. It has ALL matching number for other componants such as carbs, intakes, exhaust manifolds, alt., starter, coil, dist., wiper motor, etc., etc.

            All of these things can be CORRECT but really require further investigation.

            MOST old car enthusiests commonly expect that when they see "mumbers matching" it applies to the title, V.I.N. plate and engine as the basics.

            All of these things have to be considered, determined, AND proven if it ever comes to the point of a buyer sueing a seller for misrepresentation of a car. Hence, you better get a signed, written statement of what you believe you are buying from the seller if you ever expect to make a case if you determine you have been dupped.

            However, the savvy buyer will know enough to ask "is this the ORIGINAL, BORN IN THE CAR, FACTORY INSTALLED componants that the seller is stating as numbers matching?"

            The problem is that with all of the restamped engines and so on (which BTW, has been going on regularly for the past 30+ years on old muscle cars), it is really hard to tell if it is real or not. Especially with the improvements in these practices in the last few years.

            As a seller of a classic car I will always tell a potential buyer to inspect the car for themselves and make their own judgement. If asked if it is the ORIGINAL engine I simply say " I did not buy it new, the car is X number of years old, it has been through God only knows how many owners, and all I can do is tell you what I see, so ask you questions and form your own opinions" This will sometimes put SOME people off while others are happy with the honesty of the remarks. I also will have the following statement on my bill of sale to the buyer:

            CAR IS SOLD AS-IS/WHERE IS WITH NO WARRANTY OR GUARANTY EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED. THE INFORMATION GIVEN IS WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE TRUE, BUT SINCE I HAVEN’T OWNED THIS PARTICULAR VEHICLE SINCE IT WAS NEW, I DO NOT GUARANTEE ANY OF THE INFORMATION TO BE 100% ACCURATE. EVERYONE HAS DIFFERENT OPINIONS OF THINGS, ESPECIALLY AUTOMOBILES. ONE MAN’S JUNK IS ANOTHER MAN’S TREASURE. MY DESCRIPTION IS DONE IN AS ACCURATE A MANNER AS POSSIBLE IN MY OPINION. IF THERE IS ANY PARTICULAR AREA OF THIS VEHICLE THAT IS OF CONCERN TO YOU, IT IS UNDERSTOOD THAT YOU HAVE SATISFIED YOURSELF ENOUGH TO MAKE THIS PURCHASE.

            Seldom do people own a car that there is undeniable proof positive of a car's pedigree back to it original sale when new. When you do, and the car is a desirable model it will have a positive effect on the car's value to MOST people. These cars are few and far between and in reality have little effect on the same cars without this pedigree. The problem is that everyone wants THEIR car to have the highest possible value and it just isn't so when compared to the above example, THAT is what sets those cars apart. ANY car can be duplicated from the standpoint of a quality restoration.

            On the other hand, there is a growing population of buyers and sellers that just don't care if it is matching numbers or not and will pay good money (sometimes as much or MORE than the "numbers matching" cars) simply because of the QUALITY of the car in terms of how it was restored or put togather. If you doubt this, just take a look at the record prices of street rods and restomods today.

            My point is that you have to have the seller's "definition" of numbers matching when you ask these questions.
             
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            • pabster

              pabster Well-Known Member

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              Thanks for the wise words about engine size, bluefury. I get alot of sighs from everyone when I say "It's got a 318." But with the small block, I can use my Charger as a daily driver and not go broke!
               
            • bigmanjbmopar

              bigmanjbmopar Newb with a view

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              UM I wouldn't ho hum a 318, me and a bud built one with 360 heads and it screamed like a scorched wildcat in a 68 barracuda. Any one roles their eyes at you when you say 318 just slap them in the face! lol

              We used to scream up and down the freeways at 150mph, so keep smiling :)
               
            • 69Coronetrt

              69Coronetrt Well-Known Member

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              Thanks to D for coming up with the information. Couple of thougts...

              3) You may want to clarify which body style you are talking about. Since this is a B body forum you may want to clarify these stampings are B body locations and omit the reverence to the C body or define which body style has the listed locations. You may also want to include locations for 71 and up cars.

              4) There are numerous examples of an Engine assembly date (EAD) with a date after the SPD. A block could have a later EAD than the SPD and be numbers matching.

              I know it gets posted a lot and I'm afraid it is becoming incorrect 'common knowledge' but I have seen no credible research that indicates only HP blocks got a VIN stamps for model year 1968. It is true that not all plants stamped VINs at the same time so a 68 block may or may not have a VIN stamp but to say only HPs got stamped defies logic. I would ask that until documentation arises, people stop posting this information. If it gets posted enough times, 'speculation' becomes 'truth'.

              There also appears to be a couple of words missing in some sentences.

              5) See #4 regarding 1968 models.

              Thanks again for posting. It is good and helpful information but there are so many details that need to be considered for each year, plant and model, it can be hard to identify all of them.
               
            • 696pack

              696pack Well-Known Member

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              Doug, you are correct. Unfortunately once a post gets so old (which this one is) on this site you can no longer edit it. Also one of the downfalls of this site is that you can not completely delete a post or thread. About all I could do now is correct what i have written previously with a completely new post in this thread which would likely just confuse people.
              So, I will just let your post stand and agree some of the info needs to be tweeked and we will hope that people will READ THE ENTIRE THREAD if they are interested in this subject, pretty hopeful thinking huh.:toothy10:
               
            • INeedaB66to70

              INeedaB66to70 Member

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              Matching numbers...kind of?

              69 Road runner has matching RAD/Trunk/Fender Tag..does not come with Drive Train...I am planning to restore back to the original 383/4 speed, but since the motor and trans are non original to the car do I still need to search a bit more for correct year? And If I do this will I be able to advertise as numbers matching when and IF I ever sell the car? Thanks for the info, extremely helpful.
               
            • 69Coronetrt

              69Coronetrt Well-Known Member

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              "Matching numbers" is "matching numbers" and includes the drive train. The drive train needs to be there to be 'matching numbers'. "Body and tag match; drivetrain replaced' is a more fair and accurate way to describe it.
               
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              • Deleted member 214

                Deleted member 214 Guest

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                The original poster, 69runner, had a 70 Challenger 440+6 he restored. Orginal motor was long gone. He built a motor cast a few months prior to the build date of the car and when he sold it he advertised it as "numbers matching body, correct date code engine".
                 
              • Dennis H

                Dennis H FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                Good info here. HOWEVER, I really don't care. I have the correct engine. It is the "miles of smiles that count. Don't care what it is worth, and I put in a Keisler and sold the a833 and manifolds etc. It's all bullshit. Do what makes you enjoy the purpose built - and design vision of our fabulous Mopars. God Bless John Herlitz.
                 
              • polywideblock

                polywideblock FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                71 cowl number.jpg

                location of cowl body number for 3rd gen b bodies , I've noticed they seem to be left out of most of these sort of threads . still can't figure out why :eusa_think:
                 
              • freshayr

                freshayr New Member

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                I'm looking at a 1973 challenger with a 340. It is supposed to be numbers matching motor. shouldn't part of the number stamped on the drivers side head match last last part of the VIN? It says J 340 and then 7 numbers that have no resemblance to the VIN number of the car.
                 
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