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Max Wedge Valve Stem Seals?

fmahannah

1963 Dodge Polara Max Wedge Tribute
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These are max wedge mopar reproduction heads P5007494. Pulled due to oil getting into combustion chambers from somewhere. Head gasket was fine and rings are good (all comp tests passed at least) so I am looking at the seals. Can anyone tell me if these look like correct seals? The umbrella one fits very loose. Supposedly the seals used were Mahle B45403 and 45343. What would I replace these with? The ones I bought that were recommended seem wrong
Enginetech S2888-20

Also on the wiggle test for valve guide clearance the valve with the umbrella seal wiggles dry but not wet with oil, the other one wiggles dry and still wiggles wet with oil. Engine is supposed to only have 2400 miles on the build.

Thanks

IMG_6091.JPG
 
A few observations:
1) exhaust has an intake umbrella seal on it
2) Intake has an aftermarket positive seal on it
3) 0.060" spring shims on a newer reproduction heads, and they are pretty worn (gold worn to the steel) for 2400 miles
4) Would like to see the guides without valves and seals to see their condition.

From what you said, it sounds like there is too much intake clearance allowing the valve to rock and opening up the seal to allow oil past it.
 
Yeah I actually think the guy swapped out the motor just before I bought it from the dealer since this is not the motor on the build sheet that was included. Also this is a 413 block bored 60 over with max wedge repo heads on it, shouldn't there be valve reliefs in the block? They are not there. Thanks I will take another pic without the seals.



IMG_6093.JPG
 
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You should see how far you can open the exhaust valve before it contacts the top of the block.
If the valve can travel .060” or so more than the net valve lift, then there isn’t a “mechanical” reason for the valve notches.
If it has a cam with similar lift to the OE MW cam, it’s probably close.

Also, an accurate valve stem-to-guide clearance figure would be nice as well.
With iron guides and 3/8” stems I’d like to see about .002” clearance.

Since the heads are off already, I’d machine the guides to accept the modern style steel jacketed Viton seals.

EF020AF7-8248-4AEB-9C16-F9933FE81B2D.png

I use them on just about everything these days.
906’s I just put together: 519BD8C4-0F0A-416C-8D5C-B1A4CD553A2C.jpeg
 
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Cam is the mopar 509. I don't have the tools to measure the clearance but depending on what else I find in the other head I might just send them out to be redone.

Thanks
 
All you’d need for tools is a dial caliper.

Set the head on the block with the used head gasket.
No spring on the valve.
Holding the valve up, measure from the top of the valve to the top of the guide.
With the piston down a bit and out of the way........ push the valve open until it contacts the block.
Measure from top of valve to top of guide.
The difference between the two measurements is the total available valve travel.
In your case(.509 cam), you’re looking for that number to be .570” or more.

If you have that much, notches not necessary.
If you don’t....... then it depends on how close things are and what you’re comfortable with......... or the bores can be notched........ or you can use a cam with less lift that will give you the clearance you want.

You should check for witness marks before you do a bunch of cleaning up.
Sometimes the valve doesn’t hit the top of the block, but rubs the side of the bore near the top.
 
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There is no suction on the exh side so the plain jane seal is ok...or no seal at all. Int seal in pic #1 is ok.
I wish you luck. I do not think your smoke problem is due to valves/seals &....never did.
You can see in post #3 how open these heads are around the spring pockets, & the excellent drain off area; the oil cannot pool enough to be drawn into the guides.
Some heads have this area completely closed in with just p/rod & a couple of drained holes for oil drainage to the pan.
 
There is no suction on the exh side so the plain jane seal is ok...or no seal at all. Int seal in pic #1 is ok.
I wish you luck. I do not think your smoke problem is due to valves/seals &....never did.
You can see in post #3 how open these heads are around the spring pockets, & the excellent drain off area; the oil cannot pool enough to be drawn into the guides.
Some heads have this area completely closed in with just p/rod & a couple of drained holes for oil drainage to the pan.

So where do you really think the oil is coming from? I am just checking seals and guides because I had to pull the heads to check head gaskets to cross those off the list. Intake gasket was new and when I put it back together it will be the second new intake gasket. I figured seals would be the only other source for oil burning. Rings seem fine, comp tests all passed, no signs of scratching or scoring in cylinders and can still see all of the honing marks.

Thanks
 
You should see how far you can open the exhaust valve before it contacts the top of the block.
If the valve can travel .060” or so more than the net valve lift, then there isn’t a “mechanical” reason for the valve notches.
If it has a cam with similar lift to the OE MW cam, it’s probably close.

Also, an accurate valve stem-to-guide clearance figure would be nice as well.
With iron guides and 3/8” stems I’d like to see about .002” clearance.

Since the heads are off already, I’d machine the guides to accept the modern style steel jacketed Viton seals.

View attachment 1287706

I use them on just about everything these days.
906’s I just put together: View attachment 1287711

Bought a cheap digital caliper and not sure how accurate it is but as a baseline it pretty consistently shows valve stems at .371 (supposed to be .375)
Using it to internally measure the hole in the guide at the top as far down inside as the calipers will measure on its flats is showing what I think might be some
pretty large clearances on some of the valves and decent on others? For example from as .361 to .369. Seems like exhaust valves are worse and do show
a lot of buildup and do not seem to be seating well (bounce test).

Because they are so inconsistent and definitely beyond .002 I think I may need to have the heads done? Honestly I would just buy new ones to save time
but the max wedge repros seem to no longer be available and I am not sure what other max wedge type heads would work correctly on this 413 60 over?
Any recommendations on heads would be really appreciated.

Thanks
 
New heads may be no better than what you have, I would have those done by someone who knows what they are doing. I will not even install new heads until they are gone thru anymore, to many issues. The positive seals like PR shows are the way to go, nobody can give you a part number for those without a measurement of the guide machining that was done. That said I do not think the seals are causing the fogging unless the intake seals do not fit the machined guide boss, the exhaust would smoke on start up. I have seen high mile worn out engines with so much buildup on the intake valves that you wonder how they made enough power to run down the interstate and they never fogged, just startup smoke. I would think for it to fog from the intake seals there would be oil in the intake ports. I could be wrong.
 
So where do you really think the oil is coming from? I am just checking seals and guides because I had to pull the heads to check head gaskets to cross those off the list. Intake gasket was new and when I put it back together it will be the second new intake gasket. I figured seals would be the only other source for oil burning. Rings seem fine, comp tests all passed, no signs of scratching or scoring in cylinders and can still see all of the honing marks.

Thanks
Just a thought,have you checked the condition of your oil,maybe contaminated with fuel due to earlier wash down from needle and seat problem. Just trying to look outside the square.
 
Just a thought,have you checked the condition of your oil,maybe contaminated with fuel due to earlier wash down from needle and seat problem. Just trying to look outside the square.
Oil has been changed since the carbs stopped flooding.

Also outside the box, has anyone ever had any fuel additives cause smoking? For example royal purple octane booster, HEET, etc? I have also seen people add MMO (marvel mystery oil) to fuel tanks, but I have not done that.

Thanks
New heads may be no better than what you have, I would have those done by someone who knows what they are doing. I will not even install new heads until they are gone thru anymore, to many issues. The positive seals like PR shows are the way to go, nobody can give you a part number for those without a measurement of the guide machining that was done. That said I do not think the seals are causing the fogging unless the intake seals do not fit the machined guide boss, the exhaust would smoke on start up. I have seen high mile worn out engines with so much buildup on the intake valves that you wonder how they made enough power to run down the interstate and they never fogged, just startup smoke. I would think for it to fog from the intake seals there would be oil in the intake ports. I could be wrong.

Finding someone here close to home familiar with mopars has proven to be difficult. Closest place is Atlanta so far. The intake seals currently on it are Mahle 45403, guides on intakes measure .634 at least with this guage.
 
Generally, if the intake seals are inadequate/ineffective, there will be evidence of the oil running out of the guide.
The bowl will be wet, the backside of the valve will be wet with oil, there might even be a trail of oil running out of the guide.
When you remove the valve from the head there will be a lot of oil on the stem and in the guide.

If you have none of that, the problem is likely not the intake seals.

One other thing...... the valve stems are not .375”.
And....... different brands of valves often have different stem diameters.
Intake stems for mopars are typically .3710”- .3725”
Exhaust stems will typically be .3705”-.3720”
Some brands will have the intake stem slightly larger than exhaust, others might be the same between the two.

And fwiw, a caliper isn’t really the right tool for measuring guide clearance.
You need a way to measure the size of the guide for it’s full length.
 
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If you suspect the guides, you can get them re-lined with K-liners, & have the seats cut. No need for new heads.
We are running out of possibilities for oil migration into the chambers. I still think it could be a sealing problem with the intake.
What else? What sort of head gaskets: shim steel or composition. Could there be any leakage from the rocker oil feed hole in the block at the head gasket? Where oil could get sucked into a chamber?
 
Should have added.....
Never rely on digital calipers for accuracy. Ok for a rough idea. There is a reason you can buy them for $10...
 
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