• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Move Steering Box for more room

Jeffj

Well-Known Member
Local time
7:16 PM
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Messages
59
Reaction score
20
Location
chilliwack
Any reason that the steering box cannot be moved toward the D side frame rail for more header clearance? There appears to be at least an inch more room to the frame rail from it's current position. I'll try to post a picture, 1965 Satellite.
As built, the P side inner tie rod is just inboard of the LCA pivot while the D side inner tie rod is a bit more inboard of the LCA pivot. In a perfect world, would bump steer be less if the inner tie rods were lined up with the LCA pivot point, thereby moving the tie rods in the identical arc to the LCA movement? The cross bar connecting the tie rods would have to be extended by the amount of the extra span and both tie rods would have to be shortened in this scenario.
There is plenty of room for a U joint in the steering shaft and actually even to rotate the Box a taste to align it with the steering shaft position at the firewall.
The link between the pitman arm and idler arm could be cut off at the straight section and turned town to fit into a nice heavy wall chrome moly tube and welded in place at a wider span; it could actually be a couple of pounds lighter and actually stronger.
Any thoughts from anybody who has done something like this?
Jeff j
 

Attachments

  • LaQuinta Pictures 117.jpg
    LaQuinta Pictures 117.jpg
    62.9 KB · Views: 405
The problem you will run into when moving the steering box is that it will no longer drive the drag link from the proper angle. Keep in mind, the pitman arm and the idler arm work in unison as the drag link moves from side to side. If you alter one of the pivot points (steering box with pitman arm) you will alter the steering geometry. This could result in ill handling.
 
Not true. As long as the box is square on it's original mounting plane the geometry is not affected. You are correct if the two pivot points are not in the same plane or if the pitman or idler arm location is raised or lowered there would be an issue. Sliding the box left or right causes no issue. In fact the AAR and T/A's had a longer than stock pitman arm than idler arm to quicken the turning ratio, again no issue. I've already done it. Believe or not many factory K-frame are off. Check the Mopar suspension book. It instructs on how to make it right. For what it's worth I have done front end work for 30+ years.
Doug
 
Thanks so much for all of the input guys. I am going to move forward with this project as soon as I am back home in March. I have a parts car that I think I will use to demo this and will post photos of the project as I work it through. I have decent skills and good MIG and TIG equipment to use. I am going to look at some measuring equipment such a Longacre or similar oval track stuff to measure and document the before, during and after results.
I welcome any other input from you or other members. Again, thanks.
Jeff J
 
Please keep us in the loop, i would like to do this as well. Since I am running a hemi with manual in a 67 coronet with TTI headers it is tight and the extra 1 inch would mean alot.
 
Yes, I will post with some pictures as I work through the project; I have gotten tons of info and ideas here and intend to pass along anything from my project which could help others with similar interests.
I have a friend that runs a pavement midget and they have all of the Caster/Camber and Bump Steer tools which I can use.......I have drag raced for years, last in top alcohol dragster but have quit that now; just took too much of everything; best of 5.263 and 270.05 mph in 2013,our last year. Finished #4 in the NHRA National points.
What I want to do is improve the room for headers. I have a 512 low deck stroker wedge, 2 Gen 3 hemis, a 5.7 and a 6.1 and finally a Gen 2 hemi setup with no block as yet. I am looking at a 64 Belvedere post car for one of these and of course the 65 satellite.
I also want to see how good the handling and steering can be made with basic stock stuff. For example, Steering box....why not drop the line pressure to do the same thing as the FF stiffer reaction springs? Heit's has a $90 adjustable pressure regulator for this purpose. The FF support bearing for the pitman arm makes total sense. Their bearing in the idler arm, same deal but why not build one and add the upper bracket to put it in double shear like the newer K frames? Add heim ends to the strut rods, easily made and stabalize the LCAs; sway bars, just prowl the wrecking yard for a nice big pair of bars that would fit dimensionally and add the mounts for them. Just looking at all the components to see how much it can be improved/updated without breaking the bank.
Does anybody have a pair of C Body spindles to get rid of? Somewhere here there was discussion about this using, I think, '73 disc brake spindles which lift the upper ball joint a bit and drop the spindle position 5/8". I would like to use a 2" dropped spindle but they seem to be $400+ for a pair which is pretty pricey when for ford or GM they are $150 pr....... Anybody got and aluminum driveshaft from a Crown Vic Police Interceptor?
JeffJ
 
Last edited:
I would like to use a 2" dropped spindle but they seem to be $400+ for a pair which is pretty pricey when for ford or GM they are $150 pr.......

Welcome to Mopar... :tied up:
 
Not true. As long as the box is square on it's original mounting plane the geometry is not affected. You are correct if the two pivot points are not in the same plane or if the pitman or idler arm location is raised or lowered there would be an issue. Sliding the box left or right causes no issue. In fact the AAR and T/A's had a longer than stock pitman arm than idler arm to quicken the turning ratio, again no issue. I've already done it. Believe or not many factory K-frame are off. Check the Mopar suspension book. It instructs on how to make it right. For what it's worth I have done front end work for 30+ years.
Doug
The 71 340 E body cars also got the quick steering T/A setup and the only things I noticed that was a bit different was the Ackerman and iirc, the turning radius was a bit tighter going one way vs the other.
 
dvw, I'm not doubting your experience, and I am always open to learning new things. I'd like to discuss this a bit more in depth (my mind keeps telling me the angles are going to be affected, but I'd like my eyes & ears to prove it wrong).

If you move the steering box (along the same plane as you mentioned) further away from the idler arm, won't the pick up point of the drag link be placed along a different point in the arc of the pitman arm? At that point, won't the pit man and idler arm travel along arcs which are not concentric to the pick up points on the drag link? Just scratching my head....

If it works, it works.... but for the sake of satisfying my head itch, can you explain it?
 
dvw, I'm not doubting your experience, and I am always open to learning new things. I'd like to discuss this a bit more in depth (my mind keeps telling me the angles are going to be affected, but I'd like my eyes & ears to prove it wrong).

If you move the steering box (along the same plane as you mentioned) further away from the idler arm, won't the pick up point of the drag link be placed along a different point in the arc of the pitman arm? At that point, won't the pit man and idler arm travel along arcs which are not concentric to the pick up points on the drag link? Just scratching my head....

If it works, it works.... but for the sake of satisfying my head itch, can you explain it?
Your thought process is 100% correct. The arc pivot point does move. Lets look down at the steering linkage from the top. The pitman arm pivot will be moved outward approximately .750". This will draw the pitman arm/centerlink point forward slightly. It will not move the linkage in the horizontal plane. Bump steer happens when the steering linkage is raised or lowered in the horizontal plane vs the lower control arm pivot/ball joint centerline. Basic rule of thumb. If the lower control arm pivot, inner tie rod, outer tie rod, and lower ball joint form a parallelogram you'll be close. Think about it. Adding caster to an early Mopar suspension from the factory spec of +3/4 to say 3.5 degrees is common. When we do this the outer tie rod goes towards the ground. Now our parallelogram dimension has changed. Factory from suspensions are seldom perfect when it comes to bump steer. Moving the box in this manner doesn't move the centerlink point .125". My 64 has zero toe change through out its range. The outer tie rods were converted to heim joints with an adjustable height attachment to the steering arm/lower balljoint. Notice how straight the wheels are during the wheel stand.
Doug
 

Attachments

  • 10534517_605953346169216_2302541632895330289_n.jpg
    10534517_605953346169216_2302541632895330289_n.jpg
    73.7 KB · Views: 235
DVW when your body drops down after the Wheelie you cut friction at landing point 30 % with the pitch of the tires like your picture describes. I bet this is worth a full .10
 
DVW when your body drops down after the Wheelie you cut friction at landing point 30 % with the pitch of the tires like your picture describes. I bet this is worth a full .10
Don't know what is was worth. I do know that when we started running this car last year it went 9.42@143. Messed with lightening the trans, ladder bar adjustments, added a carb air pan, and reworking the front suspension. Ran timing and jetting loops which proved to gain very little, maybe .03. Other than that we haven't touched the engine except to change valve springs, and inspection. The car now has run a best of [email protected]. I'm chasing the 8's.
Doug
 
On a race only car would maintaining toe angle not be simpler by just limit suspension travel?
 
On a race only car would maintaining toe angle not be simpler by just limit suspension travel?

Sure would. But what if the car needs the suspension travel? Most cars do, mine included. Running limiters can unload the rear when they hit. It 60 foots pretty consistent 1.29-1.31 on a true 10.5 tire. Actually is a very good bracket car even on marginal prep.
Doug
 
Doug, very nice front end control at full extension! Is it as good compressed? I will be very happy if I can get my street car that good!
Am I correct in my thinking that to get the bump steer at it's best will require the outer tie rods to be dropped lower?
I have found some 7 degree taper tie rod ends that are purpose built with a inch and a half drop in them. They are about 8 inches long as opposed to the OEM ones at 4 inches but I can easily go to a 4 inch sleeve from the 8 inch stocker. They are also 11/16 so I would convert the inners to the C Body ones as well as to 11/16 sleeves which a lot of folks recommend anyway.
What do you think from where you had to go to get your car lined up? These ends are forged in a droop so would resist bending perhaps better than a big spacer to drop down that far in a street car/power steering application.
Jeff J
 
Mine didn't need an 1.5"drop, way less. Each car is different. The more caster you have the further the tie rod is dropped. I used these from speedway automotive.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Adjustable-GM-Tie-Rod-Adapter-Stud-to-Heim,3333.html.
It was necessary to remove about .100" from the bottom of the steering arm. This allowed the taper to seat fully. I cut and welded my tie rod sleeve, inner half stock and the outer half 5/8' thread.I made them from these.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Garage-Sale-Steel-Sleeve-with-5-8-18-Threaded-Ends,45817.html. I didn't measure the toe change in compression. It stops straight from 147 though.
Doug
 
My thinking is that I want to minimize bump to the smallest amount I can achieve.

I would like to get to something like +3* of Caster with the stock upper arms by using the Moog off set bushings and/or off set upper ball joint. Would more caster be desirable for the street if I could get there?

I would like to get the Camber as close to zero as I can or a bit in at the top under compression (negative, I think?) and out at the top (positive, I think) under extension.
Jeff J
 
Auto Transport Service
Back
Top