my perfect cooling system

[vance.dykes]

REMEMBER THAT 2 THINGS ARE NEEDED TO COOL THE ENGINE IT IS THRU HEAT TRANSFER this is done by 1. the coolant and 2. air flow. the coolant absorbs heat from the engine then the radiator i.e heat transfer unit removes the heat via air flow. OK after 2 to 3 months of reading on the form seeing what all of you have done and then with my 40 years as a master ASE technician looking at how a new car radiator and cooling system works I have designed this for my cooling system if you look at the radiators radiator one is a summit three row that I used when I raced. look at the fins and the tubes and how they contact and inside ribbing within the fins with this it cooled my car very well for a racing application it fit a 22 inch hole perfectly and I use a single 16 inch fan to keep the car in temp even in round robin not much more than 210 with a 10 minute cool down to 175. Radiator three is from one of my fleet vehicles which is an F 250 with a 6.2 V-8 these are three-quarter inch tube two row radiator and my guys try and blow these up every day but the cooling systems never have a problem. radiator number two is a champion cooling system and if you look at the fins here you can see they look similar to the other two now these are a two row 1 inch tube .

rad-1

rad-2

rad-3 f-250

 

[vance.dykes]

The fan's i picked we’re by Derale and there are 2000 CFM each the shroud is a basic piece of aluminum but the holes were too small so I have to cut them so the fans don’t hit the openings and match to get the full affect of the air being pulled through what you will see is I have made air dams for the radiator shroud and when I fit the radiator I may have to put some between The radiator support and the radiator Remember airflow through the radiator is very important so closing ALL GAPS on the top bottom and sides. the thickness is the big problem that i read hear with these fans and shroud and it looks like i will have 5 1/2 thick i will post a pic when it is all together .

 

[vance.dykes]

just wait till post pic's of the a/c condenser air dam's REMEMBER AIR FLOW THRU RADIATOR.

 

[vance.dykes]

When I installed my AC condenser I saw the gaps on the sides and top I took two Air dams from a E250 Van which are semi hard plastic and rubber ends to make the top and bottom air dams on the side I had some of that plastic cardboard sign stuff that I cut and then silicone into place so that the air has to come through the condenser to the radiator for maximum airflow and direction

 

[MWFan]

The fan's i picked we’re by Derale and there are 2000 CFM each the shroud is a basic piece of aluminum but the holes were too small so I have to cut them so the fans don’t hit the openings and match to get the full affect of the air being pulled through what you will see is I have made air dams for the radiator shroud and when I fit the radiator I may have to put some between The radiator support and the radiator Remember airflow through the radiator is very important so closing ALL GAPS on the top bottom and sides. the thickness is the big problem that i read hear with these fans and shroud and it looks like i will have 5 1/2 thick i will post a pic when it is all together .


View attachment 1040643 View attachment 1040644 View attachment 1040645

Yes, airflow. When I bought my Polara with a 440 it had overheating probs at idle and vapor lock issues on a hot restart. It had a big electric fan on a thermostat that couldn't begin to keep up. Tried several things and read a post from here regarding the original engineering of the cooling system and the importance of the shroud. Went back to a stainless fan and built a fiberglass shroud. You could feel the difference in airflow just putting your hand in front of the radiator. Never overheated again.

 

[vance.dykes]

I AM running a serpentine belt drive so room is important

.

 

[vance.dykes]

Yes, airflow. When I bought my Polara with a 440 it had overheating probs at idle and vapor lock issues on a hot restart. It had a big electric fan on a thermostat that couldn't begin to keep up. Tried several things and read a post from here regarding the original engineering of the cooling system and the importance of the shroud. Went back to a stainless fan and built a fiberglass shroud. You could feel the difference in airflow just putting your hand in front of the radiator. Never overheated again.

you are right when i run the system and the fans come on i will show how a rag will be pulled onto the grill.
when i first put this car on the road [ 37 years ago ] i to had cooling troubles and after install of many parts for test's i ran a 7 blade fan with a thermal clutch fan 3 row 22 in factory radiator and it was way better little hot in traffic but i did not put a shroud on it at that time.

 

[vance.dykes]

remember when i started my career it was points /plugs / condenser / wires and adjust carb and timing.

THERE WAS NO INTERNET YOU WOULD HAVE TO READ A BOOK .... or learn form others witch means you would have to go to someone or some where to get the info you needed . not just post a question and be rude because you did not get the info handed to you.

 

[vance.dykes]

start of sealing of shroud.

 

[RJRENTON]

REMEMBER THAT 2 THINGS ARE NEEDED TO COOL THE ENGINE IT IS THRU HEAT TRANSFER this is done by 1. the coolant and 2. air flow. the coolant absorbs heat from the engine then the radiator i.e heat transfer unit removes the heat via air flow. OK after 2 to 3 months of reading on the form seeing what all of you have done and then with my 40 years as a master ASE technician looking at how a new car radiator and cooling system works I have designed this for my cooling system if you look at the radiators radiator one is a summit three row that I used when I raced. look at the fins and the tubes and how they contact and inside ribbing within the fins with this it cooled my car very well for a racing application it fit a 22 inch hole perfectly and I use a single 16 inch fan to keep the car in temp even in round robin not much more than 210 with a 10 minute cool down to 175. Radiator three is from one of my fleet vehicles which is an F 250 with a 6.2 V-8 these are three-quarter inch tube two row radiator and my guys try and blow these up every day but the cooling systems never have a problem. radiator number two is a champion cooling system and if you look at the fins here you can see they look similar to the other two now these are a two row 1 inch tube . View attachment 1040639
rad-1View attachment 1040640
rad-2View attachment 1040642rad-3 f-250

Your supposition on heat transfer characteristics is partially correct.

REMEMBER THAT 2 THINGS ARE NEEDED TO COOL THE ENGINE IT IS THRU HEAT TRANSFER this is done by 1. the coolant and 2. air flow. the coolant absorbs heat from the engine then the radiator i.e heat transfer unit removes the heat via air flow.

The important factor you overlooked is the VELOCITY of the heat transfer media as it moves thru the system AND the VOLUME the heat transfer fluid, in gallons/min or grams/second or some other quantifiable unit of measurement. In addition, just about everybody only concerns themselves with the radiator, and assumes that the slower it moves thru the radiator the more heat is transferred.....but what about the other half of the equation....the heat SOURCE (the engine). Since the cooling system is a closed system, the slower the heat transfer fluid moves thru the radiator, presumably the more heat is rejected but...but, the slower it also moves thru the heat source as well, picking up more heat to be rejected.....catch 22. Nothing is gained. IF the heat transfer fluid's VELOCITY and VOLUME are increased the more heat can be transferred. Several other factors are involved, namely, the total surface area of both the heat source and heat exchanger, temperature differences of the heat transfer fluid entering and exiting the heat source (to know the total Btu's absorbed) as well as the temperature and velocity of entering and exiting the heat exchanger (radiator) and the air entering and exiting the radiator.
I say again, thermodynamics is an exact science. Your premise does not address all the necesssry factors. The formula: Q (heat) = M (mass flow) x Cp (specific heat of the transfer media) x Delta T (temperature differences of both the heat source and heat exchanger- in degrees F or C). Because the operating are variable, the calcalculations should be averaged, iteratively, over a minumum-maximum range to determine the best size components to use. This is what the design engineers do.
BOB RENTON

 

[vance.dykes]

Your supposition on heat transfer characteristics is partially correct.

REMEMBER THAT 2 THINGS ARE NEEDED TO COOL THE ENGINE IT IS THRU HEAT TRANSFER this is done by 1. the coolant and 2. air flow. the coolant absorbs heat from the engine then the radiator i.e heat transfer unit removes the heat via air flow.

The important factor you overlooked is the VELOCITY of the heat transfer media as it moves thru the system AND the VOLUME the heat transfer fluid, in gallons/min or grams/second or some other quantifiable unit of measurement. In addition, just about everybody only concerns themselves with the radiator, and assumes that the slower it moves thru the radiator the more heat is transferred.....but what about the other half of the equation....the heat SOURCE (the engine). Since the cooling system is a closed system, the slower the heat transfer fluid moves thru the radiator, presumably the more heat is rejected but...but, the slower it also moves thru the heat source as well, picking up more heat to be rejected.....catch 22. Nothing is gained. IF the heat transfer fluid's VELOCITY and VOLUME are increased the more heat can be transferred. Several other factors are involved, namely, the total surface area of both the heat source and heat exchanger, temperature differences of the heat transfer fluid entering and exiting the heat source (to know the total Btu's absorbed) as well as the temperature and velocity of entering and exiting the heat exchanger (radiator) and the air entering and exiting the radiator.
I say again, thermodynamics is an exact science. Your premise does not address all the necesssry factors. The formula: Q (heat) = M (mass flow) x Cp (specific heat of the transfer media) x Delta T (temperature differences of both the heat source and heat exchanger- in degrees F or C). Because the operating are variable, the calcalculations should be averaged, iteratively, over a minumum-maximum range to determine the best size components to use. This is what the design engineers do.
BOB RENTON

You are correct but with the radiators has been the biggest complaint i have read hear as to fitting radiator with electric fans I understand the water pump I understand the speed at which they can flow and gallons per hour i'm not a mathematician or engineer. and i wasn't trying to get into the water pump at this point I was trying to keep this a simple explanation as not to confuse others after having to explain to people for 40 years what’s wrong with your car that have no knowledge of mechanical things trying to put it on a simple level is all I’m doing go ahead and pick on me I don’t care if you don’t want my help then I’ll stop the post now

 

[Mike67]

Your supposition on heat transfer characteristics is partially correct.

REMEMBER THAT 2 THINGS ARE NEEDED TO COOL THE ENGINE IT IS THRU HEAT TRANSFER this is done by 1. the coolant and 2. air flow. the coolant absorbs heat from the engine then the radiator i.e heat transfer unit removes the heat via air flow.

The important factor you overlooked is the VELOCITY of the heat transfer media as it moves thru the system AND the VOLUME the heat transfer fluid, in gallons/min or grams/second or some other quantifiable unit of measurement. In addition, just about everybody only concerns themselves with the radiator, and assumes that the slower it moves thru the radiator the more heat is transferred.....but what about the other half of the equation....the heat SOURCE (the engine). Since the cooling system is a closed system, the slower the heat transfer fluid moves thru the radiator, presumably the more heat is rejected but...but, the slower it also moves thru the heat source as well, picking up more heat to be rejected.....catch 22. Nothing is gained. IF the heat transfer fluid's VELOCITY and VOLUME are increased the more heat can be transferred. Several other factors are involved, namely, the total surface area of both the heat source and heat exchanger, temperature differences of the heat transfer fluid entering and exiting the heat source (to know the total Btu's absorbed) as well as the temperature and velocity of entering and exiting the heat exchanger (radiator) and the air entering and exiting the radiator.
I say again, thermodynamics is an exact science. Your premise does not address all the necesssry factors. The formula: Q (heat) = M (mass flow) x Cp (specific heat of the transfer media) x Delta T (temperature differences of both the heat source and heat exchanger- in degrees F or C). Because the operating are variable, the calcalculations should be averaged, iteratively, over a minumum-maximum range to determine the best size components to use. This is what the design engineers do.
BOB RENTON

Surface area is your friend w/ a heat exchangers.

 

[vance.dykes]

Surface area is your friend w/ a heat exchangers.

well we have 22 inch and 26 inch how can there be more ?

 

[Dennis H]

Ma Mopar 26 and a clutch fan keeps mine cool. 180 Green.

 

[moparedtn]

well we have 22 inch and 26 inch how can there be more ?

Thickness of the core?

My 440 GTX is one of those 440's that runs hotter than Hades, given the chance - no doubt, a result of past
owners' transgressions at the machine shop, since over-boring these engines is a known contributor to their
already formidable heat generating capabilities.

I've got it tamed to an extent with a THICK 26" Griffin "exact fit" aluminum radiator (the thing is 3" thick!)
along with a stock shroud and a fixed-blade 7 fin steel fan (can't work a clutch in there).
This combination has managed to make the car run under terminal temperatures in summer, but she still
gets roasty if sitting idling too long, especially if I've just gotten off the highway or some such.

If I ever wanted to run an electric fan, it would have to be as a "pusher" (again, not enough clearance
engine-side) and I've been told a hundred times that's not optimum for fans.
The thing about all this is...
I look at the radiator in my modern Ram 5.7 hemi and the thing looks downright PUNY in comparison
to the Griffin in the GTX - when I replaced the one in the Ram, I was astonished at how thin the thing
is, yet it isn't much bigger in overall dimension.
That truck runs amazingly cool and dead on the one temperature (180F, since I swapped out the
thermostat years ago) without regard to ambient air temperature, traffic or how long it's been idling.
I gotta wonder how do they do that??

 

[vance.dykes]

Thickness of the core?

My 440 GTX is one of those 440's that runs hotter than Hades, given the chance - no doubt, a result of past
owners' transgressions at the machine shop, since over-boring these engines is a known contributor to their
already formidable heat generating capabilities.

I've got it tamed to an extent with a THICK 26" Griffin "exact fit" aluminum radiator (the thing is 3" thick!)
along with a stock shroud and a fixed-blade 7 fin steel fan (can't work a clutch in there).
This combination has managed to make the car run under terminal temperatures in summer, but she still
gets roasty if sitting idling too long, especially if I've just gotten off the highway or some such.

If I ever wanted to run an electric fan, it would have to be as a "pusher" (again, not enough clearance
engine-side) and I've been told a hundred times that's not optimum for fans.
The thing about all this is...
I look at the radiator in my modern Ram 5.7 hemi and the thing looks downright PUNY in comparison
to the Griffin in the GTX - when I replaced the one in the Ram, I was astonished at how thin the thing
is, yet it isn't much bigger in overall dimension.
That truck runs amazingly cool and dead on the one temperature (180F, since I swapped out the
thermostat years ago) without regard to ambient air temperature, traffic or how long it's been idling.
I gotta wonder how do they do that??

yes the room to fit a clutch fan or ele' fans is what we deal with. so the champion rad is 2 row 1-inch tube diameter rows and the fin design is what makes the transfer of heat to the air flowing thru the radiator.[ and yes the coolant is the carrier of the heat that comes later ] back in the 60's and 70' it was row's now it is fin count and design of the fins that why the new cars and trucks use thin rad's . so it is not always 3 or 4 row that is needed if you are getting a NEW STYLE HEAT TRANSFER UNIT i.e radiator.

 

[yella71]

Aluminum heads on my 383 changed things the most for me. I have a 26in 3row rad and it needs to warm up for a few minutes to get some heat in the heads to run good.

 

[moparedtn]

yes the room to fit a clutch fan or ele' fans is what we deal with. so the champion rad is 2 row 1-inch tube diameter rows and the fin design is what makes the transfer of heat to the air flowing thru the radiator.[ and yes the coolant is the carrier of the heat that comes later ] back in the 60's and 70' it was row's now it is fin count and design of the fins that why the new cars and trucks use thin rad's . so it is not always 3 or 4 row that is needed if you are getting a NEW STYLE HEAT TRANSFER UNIT i.e radiator.

The Griffin is a high-dollar, seriously - built unit that came recommended to me by some rather wise old Mopar guys (such as Rick Ehrenberg, for example).
I'd done my time dancing with the usual aluminum jobbers from distant Asian countries....
and yes, that dance included Champion, among others.
The American craftsmanship of the Griffin is impressive - but it comes at a price.

 

[66 Sat]

How much of these cooling problems are due to either modified engines or poor condition of the cooling components (incl. blocked coolant passages)? Did they overheat back in the day when they were new?

The reason I ask is I have a 22" factory radiator (re-cored), standard water pump, factory 4 blade fan (the most basic fan of all), no fan shroud, and my car runs at 180 nearly all day in a climate very similar to Miami (but perhaps a bit hotter inland a few miles).

Engine is a high compression (10.5:1) 318 poly, bored 0.60, and the temperature is spot on virtually all the time (it will creep to say 185 if I'm in heavy traffic on a very hot day, say 100 degrees).

Is it the big blocks that have most of the issues?

 

[Ccas]

well we have 22 inch and 26 inch how can there be more ?

The surface area of the tubes and the design of the tubes varies greatly based on the core and tube thickness. Two one inch rows has a much greater surface area than 3 5/8" rows. Also, the gaps in between the two rows creates double the turbulence of a 2 row that only has one gap. Turbulence slows the air flow. All of these factors plus the ones you mention affect the fans ability to pull air through the the radiator.