Mystery 440- Help!

[BigLime]

Well, I bought my 69 Charger about 4 years ago. It looks nice, but isn't where I want it to be.

Anyway, I know nothing about the 440 in it other than a short discussion with the engine builder (Who I was lucky enough to find.)

The 440 was a rebuild done around 2015. He couldn't remember much, except:

Forged Rods.
Forged Pistons- He remembers, he thinks, being flat tops. "Believes" about 10 to 1.
Doesn't know if the crank is forged or not.
He didn't know about the cam, but it is not stock and sounds like a mild street grind.
Balanced (At least that is positive)
Stock heads, no porting, new valves, etc...
Stock HP exhaust manifolds (Which I am keeping since I hate header issues.)
2 1/2 Full exhaust, no crossover.
No girdle, since it is a stock rebuild.

So...

I am going to fix my alternator and overheat issues and then get it over to a dyno. It moves "OK" and is probably around 350 HP or so.

I would like to get it up to 550-600 hp. This will be done with a power adder such as a TorqueStorm or Procharger as well as some performance mods.
Keep in mind please- I really, really do not want to pull the motor if the short block "looks" OK, but I need comments please!

I was thinking of doing the following:
Perhaps run a camera up the oil plug to verify if the crank is stock or forged.
Maybe, I can see some markings on the rods as to who they are?

Questions on the bottom end:
Can I change the rod bolts to ARP without having to remove the motor, maybe plasti-gauge to see what I get and then(ouch) pull the motor if it doesn't work out? My understanding is that any kind of stock bolts are a weak point on this engine.
Do I need a gridle at that HP? If so, it looks like I can get one in there without removing the block, but I am worried about the crank clearances changing.

If I can accomplish all this, my next step would be to pull the stock heads and CC the pistons/block/heads to see where I really are in terms of compression ratio.
Then, if I find that the comp. ratio is really around 10 to 1, get larger CC, performance heads to get the ratio to around 9 to 1 for the power adder. (Maybe a little thicker gasket?)

BTW- "Performance" clutch, he says, on stock rebuilt 4-speed, new driveshaft, rebuilt 8 3/4 with around 3:90.

What do you guys think?
Where do I start?
Do I really need to pull the motor?

I wanted to mention that I was a tried and true Chevy guy for many decades, so the 440 is a new adventure for me...

Any and all comments are appreciated!

 

[6PKRTSE]

You will want to pull the engine. To swap to ARP rod bolts and to do it correctly you will have to cut the caps, torque with the new rod bolts to the appropriate stretch and resize the big end of the rods. Would not hurt to check the pin ends also. I have done this to several sets of stock rods over the years.

No girdle is needed at that power level.

 

[Snook]

IMO. You'll never know what's in it unless you pull and refresh. You're going to add thousands of $$$ in power adders on an unknown base - not a winner but a grenade in waiting in my book. If you are shooting for 550+ HP reliably, then your plan is a non-starter, the block is a weak point at those levels and needs work to survive a long time. Do the work and reap the benefits, otherwise toss the dice and see what happens. My experience says that if I cut a corner, the building collapses on me.

Chuck (snook)

 

[R413]

Pull the engine and take it apart. You won’t get anything done with it in the car. Way far ahead in the long run.

After ARP bolt install the rods should be resized.
To make the true and round.

so just drive it as is and build another engine then swap it out.

 

[RemCharger]

That's alot of concerns.

The only thing I would do is a compression test see where you're at. Very possible it's not that high. Do a deck height and chamber cc if you're that ambitious.
A buddy built a similar deal (cast crank/pistons -stock bolts no girdle Yada Yada...stock.) bracket raced, street drove it
In fact it's still running in his brother's Dart. 11.40s.
But above all that.. why so alarmed about pulling the motor out? 2 hrs labour if you were having coffee at the same time.

 

[BigLime]

IMO. You'll never know what's in it unless you pull and refresh. You're going to add thousands of $$$ in power adders on an unknown base - not a winner but a grenade in waiting in my book. If you are shooting for 550+ HP reliably, then your plan is a non-starter, the block is a weak point at those levels and needs work to survive a long time. Do the work and reap the benefits, otherwise toss the dice and see what happens. My experience says that if I cut a corner, the building collapses on me.

Chuck (snook)

Arrrr... I was hoping you guys were not going to say pull the block. The rebuild has less than 1K miles on it.
I know, a grenade, but maybe not. I was thinking that with a build on the existing motor with around 500HP, that I could get away with the way the block is. Never done a supercharger, but I have heard that it is much easier on the bottom end then, say, Nitrous. Running 6-8 PSI should get me to that 600 HP or so. With some wide street tires (and setting the rev. limiter to, say 6500 or less, then the block would survive? Lot's of wheel spin but no real grip might keep the bottom end safe.

Also, this is a car I will drive one to two times a week. I would not drag it at a track knowing the limitations it might have on the bottom end. (Also, they are closing the only track close to me (Phoenix area) in March 2023!!!)

I am not worried about blowing out the bottom end. I just don't want to send a piston through my pretty hood!

If I am going to pull it though, I am just going to by a short block at get it to 550-600 HP NA.

Dave

 

[BigLime]

That's alot of concerns.

The only thing I would do is a compression test see where you're at. Very possible it's not that high. Do a deck height and chamber cc if you're that ambitious.
A buddy built a similar deal (cast crank/pistons -stock bolts no girdle Yada Yada...stock.) bracket raced, street drove it
In fact it's still running in his brother's Dart. 11.40s.
But above all that.. why so alarmed about pulling the motor out? 2 hrs labour if you were having coffee at the same time.

Yeah, but the wife is going to bitch if a new engine ($) shows up in the "mail".

 

[BigLime]

Yeah, but the wife is going to bitch if a new engine ($) shows up in the "mail".

That's alot of concerns.

The only thing I would do is a compression test see where you're at. Very possible it's not that high. Do a deck height and chamber cc if you're that ambitious.
A buddy built a similar deal (cast crank/pistons -stock bolts no girdle Yada Yada...stock.) bracket raced, street drove it
In fact it's still running in his brother's Dart. 11.40s.
But above all that.. why so alarmed about pulling the motor out? 2 hrs labour if you were having coffee at the same time.

Too hard to guess on the comp ratio doing a compression test. If I want to add a power adder, I need to know I am not 10.5 to 1 versus 9 to 1, or so...

 

[RemCharger]

Too hard to guess on the comp ratio doing a compression test. If I want to add a power adder, I need to know I am not 10.5 to 1 versus 9 to 1, or so...

Then there's no real question here. You know what to do.

 

[RemCharger]

Probably easiest to pop the pass side head off. And measure.

 

[BigLime]

Then there's no real question here. You know what to do.

Yeah, you guys are right, although I was hoping for a different answer.

 

[BigLime]

I really don't want to mess up the paint. There is no way a touch up is going to match and I know that Murphy told me I am going to scratch it. Top exit on the motor is a no go for me.

I read about pulling it from the bottom, but I have a four post lift and I probably am going to have to take off the whole front suspension to get it through the lift??? Anybody know?

Also, I then need an engine stand that can hold the whole assembly, I guess?

 

[6PKRTSE]

Pull the hood off. Wrap it in a moving blanket away from the project. Use some fender mats. You should be able to do the job without scratching anything from above with picker.

 

[BigLime]

Pull the hood off. Wrap it in a moving blanket away from the project. Use some fender mats. You should be able to do the job without scratching anything from above with picker.

Have you done it on your '70?

Nice car BTW.

 

[radical rob]

Engine good till about 600 hp. Then start getting cap walk on mains. IMO girdle from 500 hp and up. Girdle change where oil pickup fits in pan. Need to move farther down. Need better heads than stock. Can’t move enough air with stock heads vs aluminum. At hp levels you want details become very important. Tolerances must be correct. Best of luck.

 

[BigLime]

The hard part for me is that if I pull the motor, it is never going to end. I have had a few cars that I sold off because they sat so long with no progress.

I guess the scarier thing for me is not pulling the motor. It is what I "need to do" after it is out.

New front suspension? Of course, the motor is out.
Trans swap to an auto or 5 speed? Of course, the motor is out.

Arr...... (But thanks for the confirmation guys.)

 

[BigLime]

Engine good till about 600 hp. Then start getting cap walk on mains. IMO girdle from 500 hp and up. Girdle change where oil pickup fits in pan. Need to move farther down. Need better heads than stock. Can’t move enough air with stock heads vs aluminum. At hp levels you want details become very important. Tolerances must be correct. Best of luck.

I have looked at full engines and short blocks in the 550-700 HP range (online). I agree with you but none of them say that they girdle the block at these HP levels. Maybe they are and not mentioning it I guess??? I find it hard to believe that you can buy a 700 HP engine with a seasoned block and no girdle for the street. ???

 

[69 GeeTeeX]

Some power adders require different piston ring gaps and other things. Remove the hood cover everything up and pull the engine to do it right!

Or keep naturally aspirated and get a set of trick flow cylinder heads, etc.

 

[6PKRTSE]

Have you done it on your '70?

Nice car BTW.

Yes, I have done it hundreds of times on so many cars of mine and my buddies over the years.
Even install and remove my Hemi by myself in my Challenger whenever needed. So far so good with no scratches.

 

[BigLime]

I have looked at full engines and short blocks in the 550-700 HP range (online). I agree with you but none of them say that they girdle the block at these HP levels. Maybe they are and not mentioning it I guess??? I find it hard to believe that you can buy a 700 HP engine with a seasoned block and no girdle for the street. ???

Here is an example that maybe some of you guys can explain. Indy Heads (which from my understanding is a very reputable builder) has this 750HP (572) motor for sale:
INDY CYLINDER

It is using a "MOPAR/CALLIES" iron block. From my research the Callies block is Indy heads buying the tooling from Mopar and just making standard iron blocks. I don't see how any engine with that kind of stroke and displacement on an iron block won't blow up on the street. Am I wrong??? Don't you need an aftermarket (Aluminum) block for that amount of HP?

Again guys, I am a Mopar newbie, so don't judge me too hard!!!