new Dodge Tradesman 200 Funcraft campervan (400 cid) running rough

[allansplace]

Hi. I'm Allan. I'm new here, and this is my first post.
I guess most people here are high-performance rebuilt enthusiasts. I'm not a wrench-head myself but come from a long line of them, most of them married to Dodge.
Enough about me and mine. Here's my project.
Just a week ago I bought a 1978 Dodge Tradesman 200 Funcraft campervan with a 400 cid, 2-barrel, auto (3-speed), no air, 74,000km. Actually, if you stood behind it you'd for sure have NO air. It burned white when accelerating but no black or blue otherwise. It would NOT idle, had trouble starting, and would only start and run if throttled up.
I rebuilt the carburetor (Holley 6886, similar I guess to the 2245?) but was unsuccessful. I apparently didn't clean it well enough. What can you do with carb cleaner, paint thinner, and a toothbrush? So I bought a new Holley 6886.
Now it runs and stays running.
But it doesn't fire on all cylendars. (Thanks for withholding the jokes.) While idling it bumps and jumps and obviously doesn't want to use all pistons. I took it for an oil change just to get rid of whatever was in it.
Did I mention it had sat since 1998? Sixteen years, being started a couple times a year.
The gentleman at Canadian Tire, Art, said it wasn't worth changing the oil because, according to the dipstick (the dipstick, not the man), it had water / antifreeze in it. He said the dipstick indicated it had way too much oil in it, suggesting that water had filled up the bottom half. He did not drain the oil to see. However, the coolant reservoir is not low.
I looked later and could NOT find any antifreeze. Nothing smelled or tasted sweet. I think my next step is to drain off a bit of oil and see if anything has sunk to the bottom - I.E. water and / or antifreeze.
I know my timing is off. I mean the engine's. And I know this Holley must be adjusted by a technician.
But does anyone have any suggestions? According to Art, I need to ditch the engine and buy a good used 318 or 360 that doesn't have a cracked head or leaky gasket.
My specific question is, should there actually be water and antivreeze in the oil, can I replace the head gasket and hope that the bottom half is still okay?
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_B_engine, 1978 was the last year Dodge made the 400 'wedge'. Is this a dud engine?
I thank anyone for their comments and suggestions.

 

[sleepar]

Nothing tasted.... sweet. That's a new method I having tried.... the engine needs to be rebuilt or replaced with a running 400 or 440... not a 318-360.. I would bring it to a place that can do the work... someone on here knows a garage if you ask about that... the longer you drive it the worse it will get... what ever is wrong will require a complete rebuild because a head gasket may fix the problem but the rest of the motor has other problems.... that needs to be worked out...

 

[mopwrd340]

I was given a 77 dodge van that had sat for a while that had a 400 init it also had low km yes it had a km odometer in it . Mine wouldnt run very well either found the heat riser stuck and it burnt no 6 exh valve so thats something i would check since it sat for so long .

 

[Photon440]

Hi allansplace, welcome to the forum! (You should go and introduce yourself in the 'welcome' section).

Sorry to hear of your problems. No, the 1878 400 isn't a 'dud' engine, just not the most common option in your van. And before someone comments, your van was actually based on a b-body chassis so it should fit in here.

Before getting into serious engine work like head gaskets, forget the Canadian Tire people and get the oil changed, and the spark plugs. After all that time the ignition wires and other tune-up stuff needs replacing too.

You could just have a few cups of water from condensation built up over years of short running times but no serious heat. Like you suspect, if it's not sweet it probably has no antifreeze in it. It's simple stuff, can you do your own oil change? Does your local Sears have an auto service?

If you get it cleaned up and running, then you can move on to the next step, like upgrading the 2bbl carb...

-=Photon440=-

 

[sleepar]

I would suspect a head gasket and or cracked head or block from freezing.... if the basic tune up doesn't solve the problem... a motor home grave yard is where I would look if I had wet exhaust on a Canadian motor...

 

[rumblefish360]

Start with the tune up basics. Cap, rotor, plugs and wires. Go to Sears or auto parts store and get a timing light that dials back. Time the engine if need be.
Also, a vacuum gauge is helpful.

A head gasket is easy work. It just takes a while to get to it and the van is not a help in its placement of the engine. The hard part is exhaust manifold bolts/studs breaking. If that happens, then the job officially "sucks!"

 

[sleepar]

Don't go to Sears.... that will only compound the problems... sadly these vans are a dime a dozen and all have problems from sitting around... it may be cheaper easier to get another one for parts or another one altogether.... look at the total package and see what's around before spending more than time on it...

 

[Billschroeder5842]

Id start with a full on tune up. Sitting for a number of yeasr will really mess things up.

I'd bet that with new plugs, wire, cap, timing, CLEAN fuel (you might have to get a new filter, pump and clean all the tank and lines) your 400 will pop back to life. Unless (as mentioned) the heads are cracked from freezing, your engine is probably good.

I have "brough back to life" several old engines after sitting for a years and most of the time it was bad/old fuel related.

 

[snakeyes]

hi and welcome to the site haven't seen one of those vans in awhile :headbang:

 

[hotrod Al]

I would go the cheapest route first by just cleaning the plugs with a small wire brush and inspect them to make sure nothing is broken or bent. Then use a small piece of sandpaper or emory cloth to clean up your contacts on the cap and rotor. Theres no sense in replacing these with new parts untill you know the engine is ok. Change your oil and filter and top off your radiator with water for the test. Start it up and watch your temp guage. When it starts shooting past the half way point, shut it off and check the oil level. If it reads overfull you have water getting in there. If it reads fine and not over then you can invest in coolant and tune-up parts. If the cylinders are flooded, odds are its a gasket. Dry cylinders and a oil pan full of water means a cracked block.

 

[allansplace]

Hi sleepar. No, in fact I'm not generally in the habit of tasting engine oil. Seems a strange thing to do in retrospect. I think Art had mentioned something about if it "smelled sweet". Tasting it seemed ... well, now it seems pretty unscientific, I admit.

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Hi mopwrd340. I'll order a new (used?) heat riser so as not to cook it any more than it's already been. Thanks for the advice.

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Fellow Surrey citizen! I was born in Surrey! Very cool.
I appreciate your comments. It seems you were for sure on the mark with the condensation idea. The oil was black - not white or grey. The head mechanic at Canadian Tire thought about the dipstick issue and had come up with the same conclusion.
I pulled all plugs and inspected and cleaned them. They looked wet with oil but ... and here's the weird part ... dried after a minute. Was that just condensation? Just normal carbon on them. I cleaned them with a wire brush and stuck them all back in. The wires look good.
So I changed the oil myself. The service records of the van dating back to 1978 say that it had used Quaker 10-30 all its life, so I did the same. After adjusting the timing (more on that later) and taking it out for a run on the highway it came back running on all 8 pistons without missing. It was a very satisfying sound.
Thanks again for your feedback.

 

[sleepar]

LOL!!! you have to be real sharp with these guys on here... from the picture you're painting reminds me of a van I had and also a pick up... I lived in Maine for most of my life... if it runs and w white steam comes from the tail pipe it could be a gasket or block or just a muffler that's damp.. if it was mine I would look around for motors or some whole van that will work and use it or toured for a parts car... because it might come out of it and be done with a minor tune up... but you have been driving it so it must be in tune enough.... but a van is a pain a big block van is x10 last year of the big block... May be an odd duck in ways... if you have a shop or just a back yard makes a difference with out shop tools but it won't be an easy swap... and if you knew what was around if worst case happens it would help make a decision... another motor running could be 3-$500 or for a similar truck/ van72 -'78 running you might want to be on the road than into a rebuild which will be more money than $500 ... everywhere is different here in Florida those campers are everywhere... good luck with whatever happens... a lot of people have those motors on here... if you want to run high 10's in the 1/4 mile.. you're also covered....

 

[allansplace]

Go to Sears or auto parts store and get a timing light that dials back. Time the engine if need be.
Also, a vacuum gauge is helpful.
A head gasket is easy work. It just takes a while to get to it and the van is not a help in its placement of the engine. The hard part is exhaust manifold bolts/studs breaking. If that happens, then the job officially "sucks!"

Thanks rumblefish360. That is exactly what I did - get a timing light. My father (a Dodge-head from way back) said it was electronic ignition and didn't need to be timed. However, I could move the distributor back and forth, so obviously it CAN and SHOULD be timed. However, I'm unsure about setting it. I see a tab but cannot see numbers. So here's what I did:
I unplugged the vacuum from the timing advance module and stuck my finger on it while moving the timing forward & back. I got the mark to line up just beside the hole in timing tab. There's a hole in the tab that looks like it needs to be filled with some device or another. True? My Haynes manual says it should be 10-12 degrees advanced, but I can't find numbers or lines. Am I doing this right? It sure runs a whole lot better now, even if it's not exact.
Oh, and the vacuum off the rear-bottom of the carb says 19 at (I'm guessing) 1800~2000 RPM. Also good? Do I fiddle with the lean / rich screws? They're factory-set now.
I look forward to your comments / instructions.

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Hi Billschroeder5842. Clean fuel made a HUGE difference. Now I'm of the belief that I should not have tried running the old carb with the old fuel. It would be better in the long run to have sucked all the old gasoline out with my lips rather than let it go through the fuel system. Regret. Oh well. The gunk that came out of the old carb was, believe it or not, green! Gross. I put mid-grade fuel Shell fuel in it. Too hot? It can get almost as hot here in Alberta as in Texas.

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Hi Snakeyes. Thanks! Looks like I came to the right place for ideas on this 'project'.
Yes, I was surprised to see a van like this in this good of shape. In my travels to British Columbia this summer I came across a few oldies that were in a little rougher shape.
Thursday, July 10, 2014 11:26 AM 2524449 20140710_112642(0) old Chevy van.jpg

Wednesday, July 09, 2014 10:51 AM 2358111 20140709_105159 old Dodge van.jpg
So I thought I was lucky to have found this one. Are there any of these left in Ohio?

 

[Photon440]

Say, what's the user name and password for those links, allansplace? Can't view them otherwise.

 

[allansplace]

I would go the cheapest route first by just cleaning the plugs with a small wire brush and inspect them to make sure nothing is broken or bent.

Hi hotrod Al. This is also Al. Or Allan.
This was one of the first things I did - pull out the plugs and have a look. I had a Chev Malibu with a 267-V8 once that always gooed up one plug. Bad rebuild. High school days, you know. So now I almost enjoy cleaning plugs. I took a wire brush like you said and cleaned them up. Nothing on them but a thin coat of carbon. But ... when they were freshly out, they seemed a little wet. With what? Oil, I thought. But then they dried. And only carbon remained. I thought this was a little odd. Condensation? After not in use since 1998 and only started twice a year, could this be moisture? Your comments?

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Say, what's the user name and password for those links, allansplace? Can't view them otherwise.

Oops! My server ... old system ... had to reset permissions. Should work now.

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a van is a pain a big block van is x10 last year of the big block... May be an odd duck in ways...

Yes, you've got that right! It's for sure an odd duck around here since everybody drives new stuff. I like to stand out though. And take a lot of room in a parking lot! Sounds like if I need parts I should drive to Florida. But I like the odd duck thing - so I won't be buying a new one.

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Eureka! Maybe. I have an electrical question.
This is a campervan, so it has (had) an RV battery in the back with an isolator mounted on the firewall. Before removing this, there were no dashboard or interior lights and had trouble holding a charge. I bought a new engine battery (yes, from Canadian Tire - I had a lot of Canadian Tire money). It could turn over but still ran rough. Then I took out the RV battery - flat as a pancake.
My question is, could this have been responsible for poor firing? Not valves, not ONLY fuel, but electrical? Was this battery soaking up too much power, were my coil and plugs starving? :O
Just an idea.

 

[sleepar]

Maybe not the battery it self but what's causing the battery to go dead...

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Just out of curiosity Google ' 78 dodge camper van Florida' and you will find something to you're liking... parts is parts...

 

[allansplace]

Maybe not the battery it self but what's causing the battery to go dead...

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Just out of curiosity Google ' 78 dodge camper van Florida' and you will find something to you're liking... parts is parts...

Yes. Good point. Dead battery is a result, not a cause. I'll have to comb through the electrical in the RV part ... maybe disconnect all the odd-looking wires and go from there.
As for the parts, it looks like there's a huge variety down there. My brother gets most of his Ford parts from dealers in Florida, too. Must be something to that.
Really nice resto projects going on! Very cool!
Maybe I should be thinking about hot-rodding this thing!

 

[daredevil]

Maybe not the battery it self but what's causing the battery to go dead...

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Just out of curiosity Google ' 78 dodge camper van Florida' and you will find something to you're liking... parts is parts...

I would think sitting sixteen years is the cause.

 

[hotrod Al]

It could be condensation in there. Ive had some that had what looked like whipped cream on the oil filler cap but was just miosture. Sounds like you've got it up and going pretty good

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Oops! My server ... old system ... had to reset permissions. Should work now.

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Yes, you've got that right! It's for sure an odd duck around here since everybody drives new stuff. I like to stand out though. And take a lot of room in a parking lot! Sounds like if I need parts I should drive to Florida. But I like the odd duck thing - so I won't be buying a new one.

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Eureka! Maybe. I have an electrical question.
This is a campervan, so it has (had) an RV battery in the back with an isolator mounted on the firewall. Before removing this, there were no dashboard or interior lights and had trouble holding a charge. I bought a new engine battery (yes, from Canadian Tire - I had a lot of Canadian Tire money). It could turn over but still ran rough. Then I took out the RV battery - flat as a pancake.
My question is, could this have been responsible for poor firing? Not valves, not ONLY fuel, but electrical? Was this battery soaking up too much power, were my coil and plugs starving? :O
Just an idea.[/QUOTE]

 

[cordoba-rick]

Big Block van...worth keeping and...creating what you want it to be. Hell, you cannot even buy a "Big Dodge Van" anymore. How many big block vans are even out there in good condition. Just like the guys that like the C-bodies, and I do also, there needs to be a group that enjoys these now past vehicles. In a non related story, my first vehicles that I learned to drive was a 1969 dodge van...3 on the tree. Does anyone younger the 30 even know what a 3 on the tree is? Learn the manual first, and be a better driver second. This van had a 318/230 horse motor as shown on the air cleaner. I later researched and found that this motor had a steel crank. What an awesome work horse. It was traded in for a 1983 dodge 150 pick up with a 4 speed/318 engine. When grandpa could not drive any more in 1996, it was given to me with a just broken in 32k. Cat removed,emissions removed, duals, better ignition, with od and p215/70/15 tires,26 on the highway....sorry to be babbling..good stuff none the less.