Offset upper control arm bushings

[superfragl]

Does anyone know how much caster can be gained with Moog offset bushings?

 

[Bill Monk]

I put them in a 68 Barracuda and I can't remember what I gained but I do remember it wasn't enough. If you don't care about originality, I would go with the tubular arms. Definitely worth the money but clearly not an option if you are going for a restoration. Just my 2 cents...

 

[Kern Dog]

My 70 Charger was able to get 4.8 degrees of caster using the offset bushings. Before, I could only get 2 1/2 degrees.

 

[dvw]

Depends on frame angle. The higher the end the less you gain. Most times you'll net between 2 1/2-3 degrees total. I run my 64 Belvedere at 150mph on 2 1/2 degrees, drives straight and true.
Doug

 

[superfragl]

Borgeson suggests setting caster to 4 degrees. Looks like I will not gain enough caster by using the offset bushings. I was able to set 3.5 degrees on passenger side, but only getting 0.5 to 1 degree on the drivers side. Rear cam is maxed out..
Tubular UCAs are nice but pricey. More than likely I will be moving the bushing location on the original control arm by cutting and welding.

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

Borgeson suggests setting caster to 4 degrees. Looks like I will not gain enough caster by using the offset bushings. I was able to set 3.5 degrees on passenger side, but only getting 0.5 to 1 degree on the drivers side. Rear cam is maxed out..
Tubular UCAs are nice but pricey. More than likely I will be moving the bushing location on the original control arm by cutting and welding.

To only get 1 deg caster with offset bushing installed - something is wrong! Installed the right way around? Only 1 offset bushing in each UCA or both?

 

[superfragl]

I did not install the offset bushings yet. That`s with stock bushings.

 

[RJRENTON]

Gentlemen,
When i rebuilt the front end of my RS23V0A******, i used the offset eccentric cams as suggested. The eccentric cams that fit into the bushings and pivot in the guide tabs in the support frame are the adjustment mechanism. Both cams should be replaced and should be of the same type on both sides of the car. I also use the polyurethane bushings to reduce deflection under load and to maintain alignment settings. What are the alignment settings? Caster angle will determine how well the car tracks on the road...and how well the steering returns to the center position. Depending on the road crown in your area where you live, will determine the caster angle.....i like -0.75 to -1,0 degrees. And CAMBER ANGLE @ -0.25 to +0.25 degrees depending on tire size...wider tires are more sensitive to camber. TOE OUT should be as close to 0.0" to -0.125". I'm sure others have their own settings for their own reasons. When setting front end alignment, set ride height first and have the fuel tank at least 3/4 full and the driver in the car.as these conditions affect front end geometry. The above information is preferences and opinions.
Bob Renton

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

I did not install the offset bushings yet. That`s with stock bushings.

Some folk only install 1 offset bush per UCA, but if you want max caster, install offsets all round. Be sure to install them right way around!

Were you struggling to get any caster on drivers side perhaps with old bushings that are offset from being old and clapped out?

I personally would not be cutting/welding upper control arms.

 

[RJRENTON]

I say again....its not the bushings but the adjustment cams that determine the settings, the Moog set up have cams with slightly more eccentricity than standard...this additional eccentricity allows for more adjustability....and as we all know, CASTER AND CAMBER sre set simultaneously by pivoting the front and rear cams. Moving the both the cams the same amount in THE SAME DIRECTION, sets the CAMBER ANGLE while pivoting the front and rear cams in OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS sets the CASTER ANGLE. The two settings, caster and camber, interact. Since the camber angle is more important because of the tire wear factor, i try and get close to my preferred setting while observing the CASTER ANGLE, and get close to my preferred setting. There is much interacting between achieving caster and camber. Setting Mopar front end alignment is a little more tedious than say GM, which uses shims between the upper control arm pivot shaft and the frame. With today's laser alignment equipment, setting a Mopar front end is a little easier, but none the less, requires patients and skill to achieve accurate results. Remember, it's not the bushings but the CAMS that do the adjustment function. IF the UCA is bent or deformed due to an accident or road pot hole, then all bets are off. If you cannot achieve settings with the increase off set adjustment cams, then something MAY BE deformed...including the LOWER control arm. This is just my opinion.
Bob Renton

 

[Cornpatch MO]

I say again....its not the bushings but the adjustment cams that determine the settings, the Moog set up have cams with slightly more eccentricity than standard...this additional eccentricity allows for more adjustability....and as we all know, CASTER AND CAMBER sre set simultaneously by pivoting the front and rear cams. Moving the both the cams the same amount in THE SAME DIRECTION, sets the CAMBER ANGLE while pivoting the front and rear cams in OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS sets the CASTER ANGLE. The two settings, caster and camber, interact. Since the camber angle is more important because of the tire wear factor, i try and get close to my preferred setting while observing the CASTER ANGLE, and get close to my preferred setting. There is much interacting between achieving caster and camber. Setting Mopar front end alignment is a little more tedious than say GM, which uses shims between the upper control arm pivot shaft and the frame. With today's laser alignment equipment, setting a Mopar front end is a little easier, but none the less, requires patients and skill to achieve accurate results. Remember, it's not the bushings but the CAMS that do the adjustment function. IF the UCA is bent or deformed due to an accident or road pot hole, then all bets are off. If you cannot achieve settings with the increase off set adjustment cams, then something MAY BE deformed...including the LOWER control arm. This is just my opinion.
Bob Renton

Where do you get adjustment cams that are more eccentric?........................MO

 

[RJRENTON]

Cornpatch,
Go to Moogs web site look up K7030 eccentric cams. Look at the entire site pertaining to Mopar. Moog was an OEM supplier to Chrysler. Their components are first class and fit.
Google Moog
Bob Renton

 

[Cornpatch MO]

Cornpatch,
Go to Moogs web site look up K7030 eccentric cams. Look at the entire site pertaining to Mopar. Moog was an OEM supplier to Chrysler. Their components are first class and fit.
Google Moog
Bob Renton

I looked that up. It appears that the # K 7030 is the eccentric cam, bolt, and bushing ---and the K8243A does not have the bushing. It would be interesting to compare those cams-bolts to the factory ones. To see the difference in amount of adjustability.... BTW one of the Moog factory 's is just 26 miles from me.................MO

 

[Kern Dog]

I say again....its not the bushings but the adjustment cams that determine the settings. This is just my opinion.
Bob Renton

Bob, you are drunk again.
The K7103 upper control arm bushings have the hole that the adjustment cam passes thru offset to one side. This effectively allows the cam bolt to sit off center too. This means that while the bushings themselves are only "adjustable" at the time they are installed, they allow the user to move the control arm inward or outward more than stock. This is what helps gain more negative camber and caster. The bushings do not allow a greater range of adjustment, they just move the range to one side or the other.
***************************************************************************************************
Generally, more negative camber will allow more positive caster. You can add thin spacers between the lower ball joint and the steering knuckle. (Some call this a spindle. It is NOT a spindle. It is a knuckle. A spindle is the shaft that the rotor or drum slides onto.)
1/8" washers will result in about 1 degree of camber change. Mancini Racing sells these a bit thicker, about 3/16" but they are dirt cheap at the hardware store.

 

[RJRENTON]

Kern...
As far as being drunk...now or ever.....I think not..for personal reasons......and let's leave it at that...
As far as off set UCA bushings....how do you adjust them as they are pressed into the UCA..? Is their placement in correct (or desired) orientation offset done by some scientific method or just the DFL factor? I'm sure you have achieved good results using your
method as i have by my method....who is correct....does it really matter? The same thing goes for shimming the lower steering knuckle.....this is something i prefer NOT to do....but this is just my opinion.....just like caster, camber and toe out settings. Who is correct....in the grand plan of life...does it really matter...i think not.
Bob Renton

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

I say again....its not the bushings but the adjustment cams that determine the settings

BULLSHIT!

Offset bushings DO allow more camber/caster adjustment (depending on which orientation you press them into the UCA) with std eccentrics. You are confused.

 

[superfragl]

Offset bushings DO allow more camber/caster adjustment (depending on which orientation you press them into the UCA) with std eccentrics. You are confused.

What he said!
Eccentrics that have more offset will be limited by the slots in the frame...

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

What he said!
Eccentrics that have more offset will be limited by the slots in the frame...

Correct!

 

[RJRENTON]

How does one determine the correct orientation (or desired position) of the offset bushings? Everything is referenced from the UCA pivot shaft centerline with regard to degrees offset, either plus or minus, with out some reference mark on the brushing? Once the ofset bushings are pressed into the UCA, they become unadjustable leaving the eccentric cams / pivot shaft the only adjustment provision. Like i mentioned, are the offset bushings initially installed by the DFL factor or "guess and by golly and hope for the best". How does one know how much offset will result?
For my car, I'll stick with the factory settings. I realize that others have their own methods and alignment settings. Who is to say which method is "best"......????
Bob Renton