Perplexing 440 problem..no power

[sputnik 440]

I have solicited the fBBo a number of times during my valve train rebuild and with my alignment problem. Got the alignment fixed with a new bushing in the lower control arm. However, the 440 is another story. After the valve train replacement with a Comp Cam Kit with not a too aggressive cam (.492) and a check and double check of the assembly process and break-in, the best I can do is to set the timing at 18-20 degrees idle (950) and with that, I am nearly all in at 40 degrees at only 3500-3800 rpms. The engine has easy start and has a terrific response, until you take it above 3800 with no load. Then it does not miss, pre-ignite or do anything that would make you suspect of a major flaw. Take it out for a spin and 1st into second is ok, but it acts like there is a governor on it at the end of 2nd. 3rd, worse than 2nd and 4th cruises at 3000 rpms but has no kick from there. I took it to a speed shop, known for its chevys ( I live in the Ozarks and not too many Mopars around here), and they have had the same results. They went as far as taking the holley 4150 apart and replaced the power valve with a lighter one. They rebuilt the Holley while it was apart. Nothing. They swapped a Edelbrock with 950 cfm from the boss's 69 Chevelle and the same reaction. The MSD seems to check out (I can contest to that..damn that smarts). The timing gears are correct, the cam should be advanced 4 degrees via the grind, so I aligned the dots straight up and down. Tomorrow we will degree the cam. I have never done that and don't know what we are looking for. From what I have read, it wouldn't be the first grind of a shaft that was incorrect. Oh, the TDC was checked and it is dead nuts. Here is the basic description of the engine. 440 bored .040, comp cam 23-224 valve kit with springs, pushrods, hydraulic lifters, new timing gear and chain, new locks and caps and valve stem seals. New Com Cam roller rockers. It has a Holley 4150 850 cfm and a 6AL digital ignition with a msd Pro Billet distributor, no vac. Fuel pump and oil pump stock (running 6psi on fuel pressure). The block is a '67 and the heads are the 915s with porting. Headers, 4 speed, 3.73 rear end. The only other think I have done is to remove, clean and replace the oil pan and windage tray, the oil pump, the power steering pump and the steering box was rebuilt. That's my story, any IDEAS?

 

[Hemirunner]

Are you running vacuum advance? If so are those timing numbers with or without it hooked up?

 

[ykf7b0]

That engine should be stout! At this point I'm thinking the fuel delivery might be the culprit. A restricted fuel line maybe?

 

[khryslerkid]

What was the adjustment on the valves or how were they adjusted?

 

[sputnik 440]

Are you running vacuum advance? If so are those timing numbers with or without it hooked up?

Sorry, I said "no vac." should have said "no vacuum

That engine should be stout! At this point I'm thinking the fuel delivery might be the culprit. A restricted fuel line maybe?

Well, that was what I thought at 3:30 this morning. Could the filter be full of crap, could the fuel pump not be functioning properly. However, we get good pressure, at least for idle with hood open. Wouldn't you think that the engine would have enough in the secondary to at least let you tromp on it and have it respond at least once? I told the Mech. to put a new filter on it. Would the gauge not show a different psi when the fuel was being starved?
advance".

 

[sputnik 440]

What was the adjustment on the valves or how were they adjusted?

The adjustment was at 0 lash and a preload of 3/4 turn. I adjusted them cold and then with the engine hot. I followed the sequence starting with #1. At first I tried 1/4 turn, then 1/2 turn and ended up with 3/4turn.

 

[khryslerkid]

Normally a .020 preload is used. With most rockers that's a half turn. What was the reason you tried three different settings? What's your CR?
By the way, I checked out your pics, beautiful car, inside and out!

 

[furryfrog]

Hmm, How strong is the exhaust pulse when you put your hand by the tail pipe?, at idle above idle? Plugged cats, or rags stuffed in your exhaust pipe somewhere? crimped exhaust pipes?

I would not rule out the ignition system completely, do you have a spare coil to swap out? Coils can do funny things? Distributor pick-up polarity backwards?

I would suspect fuel supply as well.

Perhaps when you degree the cam you will find something, maybe the grind is off.

Good luck, curious to know what you will find.

 

[66Satellite47]

Sounds like fuel supply of some sort.

 

[ykf7b0]

Sorry, I said "no vac." should have said "no vacuum

Well, that was what I thought at 3:30 this morning. Could the filter be full of crap, could the fuel pump not be functioning properly. However, we get good pressure, at least for idle with hood open. Wouldn't you think that the engine would have enough in the secondary to at least let you tromp on it and have it respond at least once? I told the Mech. to put a new filter on it. Would the gauge not show a different psi when the fuel was being starved?
advance".

My build is very similar to yours and it is thirsty. After I had mounted a fuel pressure gauge in the passenger compartment I saw the fuel pressure drop to almost 0 psi when I really got into the Holley 850. I totally removed the stock fuel system. I will recommend a fuel pressure gauge visible to you at all times to get a better idea of the fuel delivery. Good luck!!!

 

[sputnik 440]

My build is very similar to yours and it is thirsty. After I had mounted a fuel pressure gauge in the passenger compartment I saw the fuel pressure drop to almost 0 psi when I really got into the Holley 850. I totally removed the stock fuel system. I will recommend a fuel pressure gauge visible to you at all times to get a better idea of the fuel delivery. Good luck!!!

I haven't looked for a fuel pressure gauge to mount under the dash, but that thought had crossed my mind. Kind of hard to see what the pressure is with the hood down. Let me ask you this. There do you have the level of fuel in the two sight glasses of the floats on the Holley 850? I had been told to set them over half way. I ran fine that way before I changed the valve train. The mech tells me it needs to be just at the bottom of the sight glass. That is where Holley says it should be on most set ups, but as you know, this is not your normal set up.

 

[sputnik 440]

Hmm, How strong is the exhaust pulse when you put your hand by the tail pipe?, at idle above idle? Plugged cats, or rags stuffed in your exhaust pipe somewhere? crimped exhaust pipes?

I would not rule out the ignition system completely, do you have a spare coil to swap out? Coils can do funny things? Distributor pick-up polarity backwards?

I would suspect fuel supply as well.

Perhaps when you degree the cam you will find something, maybe the grind is off.

Good luck, curious to know what you will find.

 

[sputnik 440]

This is AR, no cats, but do have a 3" in and out muffler. Not sure of the make. I have not checked the exhaust pressure other than to listen and watch closely the exhaust coming out. Only observation would be the right side is a little richer than the left, but, the plugs look like they are all firing fine. I will try the coil swap. Pick up polarity can only go one way due to the specific connector design. Most of the contributors on this posting are leaning toward fuel supply. I have to get that figured out right away. Thanks for your input, very helpful.

 

[furyus]

I haven't looked for a fuel pressure gauge to mount under the dash, but that thought had crossed my mind. Kind of hard to see what the pressure is with the hood down. Let me ask you this. There do you have the level of fuel in the two sight glasses of the floats on the Holley 850? I had been told to set them over half way. I ran fine that way before I changed the valve train. The mech tells me it needs to be just at the bottom of the sight glass. That is where Holley says it should be on most set ups, but as you know, this is not your normal set up.

The float level should be in the middle of the glass sight. At the bottom is for old style Holley carbs with the sight plug that has to be removed to set the level. I also agree that it's most likely a fuel delivery issue when a car noses over at the top of the higher gears. But,you need to have timing set before messing with the carb. Total should be 34-36* all in by 3000rpm I think. Never heard of the distributor you have. Do you have a link?

 

[sputnik 440]

Agree on the level in the sight glass. That is where I always had it and it will go back to that point. Agree on the * at 3000. Agree that it sounds like a fuel supply issue. And thanks furyus on catching the error on the distributor it is a MSD Pro Billet.

Now for the latest, the degrees on the cam are off by 40+ degrees according to the speed shop. This is the last thing I expected. How it ran that way I don't know. Glad it didn't run it far. More tomorrow.

 

[Force Fed Mopar]

It wouldn't run if it was 40* off...

 

[ykf7b0]

Was it that an alignment dimple was incorrectly used (to align the dots) on the crank sprocket? There is more than one dimple on some I've saw.

 

[sputnik 440]

Was it that an alignment dimple was incorrectly used (to align the dots) on the crank sprocket? There is more than one dimple on some I've saw.

Ykf7b0 and

It wouldn't run if it was 40* off...

Was it that an alignment dimple was incorrectly used (to align the dots) on the crank sprocket? There is more than one dimple on some I've saw.

Thought about that and discussed it when we lined up the "right" ones. That would be about 40* I would think. hmm get with you tomorrow. Like force fed mopar said, how did it run that way.

 

[Cranky]

I've seen them run when they were out more than 40! A buddy of mine who knows better used the dot method on a brand new engine and bent all of his 2.14 exhaust valves. It didn't run too good but it did start and that's about all it would do. Never use the dot method period even on a stock build. That way you always know exactly where things are including true TDC.

 

[sputnik 440]

I've seen them run when they were out more than 40! A buddy of mine who knows better used the dot method on a brand new engine and bent all of his 2.14 exhaust valves. It didn't run too good but it did start and that's about all it would do. Never use the dot method period end on a stock build. That way you always know exactly where things are including true TDC.

I can't believe I did that. I just went over the procedure in the '67 Manual and I would do the same thing again, except now I know the correct procedure on cams with the 4%ground in. At least I think I do.
Mopar is back to running and hummminng. Now for the test run later today. I suspect the vacuum will be greater than what it was which will most likely dictate a change in the power valve in the Holley. I'll let all know how it goes after I have my relines put on and all wheels balance and aligned. Then it will be clean it up time and sit in the garage and look at it. lol