Positive Camber Now?

[AZRC]

My 1972 Plymouth Satellite was at 0 or Negative camber up front prior to the install of these items recently -

8.75 rear axle (had 8.25)
Hemi leaf springs
Rear KYB shocks
Front KYB shocks
Front sway bar (Firm Feel)

Now for some reason I have positive camber up front. Even after bouncing the front end and driving around for a while. Torsion bars were not changed or adjusted. The rear end does sit higher because of the new leaf springs (and going from stock to Hemi grade) but I don't think that is the main culprit.

Anyway I am stumped as to why I now have positive camber and am looking for advice on the best way to solve it.

 

[Cranky]

How much positive do you have now? Raising the rear will usually change the caster more than anything but does affect camber a little too. Are the front shocks gas charged and did they raise the front end any? If so, that probably made the most change....

 

[YY1]

If the ride height changed, then yes, the front end geometry changed.
If it was barely in spec, it is probably out now.

 

[AZRC]

I have not measured the camber but it is noticeable from just glancing at the front of the car from about 20 yards away. Looks like I pulled some weight out of the front end.

OK - what is the best remedy for this change?
1) Adjust the torsion bars
2) Take it to an alignment shop and have them try to get it back to 0 camber
3) Both of these
4) Something else

 

[AZRC]

Nobody has had this problem before?

 

[Scatransit]

Did you make a before and after ride height measurement to see if the front end came up any? Raising the front end would tend to cause the camber to go negative. Raising the rear end will tend to cause the caster to go negative. However, if we're only talking less than an inch or so, the changes would be very minor and would not likely cause and issue. Is there a handling or pulling/drifting problem? Or is it just a visual change?

 

[AZRC]

I have not driven it enough to know if there is some odd handling characteristic. It is mostly a visual thing and knowing that the tires will wear on the outside edge. I thought when you raise something up it would naturally give it positive camber - farther out at top center of tire and closer together at bottom center of tire. This is similar look to when someone removes an engine but not that bad.

Anyway right now I am just trying to understand the best way to remedy the positive camber. It has been a while since I had to work with torsion bar front suspension. All help is appreciated.

 

[Scatransit]

I have not driven it enough to know if there is some odd handling characteristic. It is mostly a visual thing and knowing that the tires will wear on the outside edge. I thought when you raise something up it would naturally give it positive camber - farther out at top center of tire and closer together at bottom center of tire. This is similar look to when someone removes an engine but not that bad.

Anyway right now I am just trying to understand the best way to remedy the positive camber. It has been a while since I had to work with torsion bar front suspension. All help is appreciated.

What you describe is opposite of how camber is affected with the front end raised. Perhaps a definition is in order: When viewed from the front, the inward or outward tilt of the top of tire/wheel assy from a true vertical centerline (that is, a centerline that is perpendicular to the road) is called camber. Inward = negative, outward = positve. Any time the front end is raised - either from removing the engine, or adjusting torsion bars, or doing a wheelstand - the top of the tire tends to tilt inward. This is because the upper ball joint tends to move inward as the upper control arm moves downward. It sounds like an alignment is in order. Be sure to get a print out of the "before" measurements. I would be interested in seeing them. As far as procedure goes, I always start with the most positive caster setting (front cam out, & rear cam in as far as they will go) that I can obtain. From there, I bring the camber in using the front cam until desired spec is achieved. Right side is usually close to zero while the left is a little positive (maybe a quarter to a half inch). This helps to compensate for road crown and keeps the car going straight. Hope this helps.

 

[Big Jim]

Couldn't agree more with Scatransit-sure not the first time he's been on a rack...

 

[Cranky]

There's also a lot of info and pics on the net about front end geometry and alignment. Sure wish this here internet stuff was around when I was trying to learn front ends many moons ago. I started doing my own alignments after seeing what some hacks can do to the adjustment cams on these old Mopars and the mid 70's/80's pickups. They do NOT go full circle but there are hacks out there that keep trying to do it and some succeed in it! Front end geometry isn't that hard and torsion bar front ends ain't hard either. It's just a different way to install a spring system.

 

[Scatransit]

After 34 years as a tech, one of the reasons I'm a MOPAR guy is the front suspension. Without a doubt the best design of the big 4 - yes I include AMC too!

 

[yellowdartdave]

I found the best way to describe the differences between neg and pos camber that even my ex could understand.

Stand behind a 1960 VW Bug..
Notice how the tires are almost straight up and down.

Then have a 350lb fat woman clamber into the back seat.
Does it look like the Jolly Green Giant has stepped on the car?
Notice how the tops of the tires are now pointed inward under the strain?
:icon_hang:

That is negative camber.

Now wiggle/pry the fat lady out of the car and then throw a floor jack under the back of the car and jack the car up until the tires come off the ground.

Notice how the tires now look like they are about to fall off and the whitewalls would probably scrub of in the 1st 100 feet of driving??

That is positive camber.

:book1:

 

[Cranky]

I found the best way to describe the differences between neg and pos camber that even my ex could understand.

Stand behind a 1960 VW Bug..
Notice how the tires are almost straight up and down.

Then have a 350lb fat woman clamber into the back seat.
Does it look like the Jolly Green Giant has stepped on the car?
Notice how the tops of the tires are now pointed inward under the strain?
:icon_hang:

That is negative camber.

Now wiggle/pry the fat lady out of the car and then throw a floor jack under the back of the car and jack the car up until the tires come off the ground.

Notice how the tires now look like they are about to fall off and the whitewalls would probably scrub of in the 1st 100 feet of driving??

That is positive camber.

:book1:

LOL! I had one Beetle in my life and only one! Man, I hated that car.....talk about an ill handling car....man, that was one of the worse and especially in wet weather! In dry, it did pretty good but geez....wet roads sucked but that was nothing compared to all the other crap that went wrong with it.

 

[YY1]

So how do the up and down (CW and CCW) adjustments work?
Would you then bring the front cam in going up or down?

I seem to remeber max caster being front all the way down and rear all the way up.

Probably wrong as I haven't done it in 25 years.

 

[Scatransit]

It's more "in & out" vs. "up & down". Like Cranky pointed out, the cams do NOT turn 360 degrees. The "meat" of the cam washer points downward. Here's an example of their function: Working on the driver's side front cam, if you turn the cam bolt CW the control arm will go inward, CCW=outward. The rear cam bolt on the driver's side works opposite, CW=outward, CCW=inward. Of course, this all hinges on the fact that the cams are properly seated in their cavities. If they are cocked, up-side down, or otherwise not flat, then rotating them will be difficult if not impossible. Not to mention corrosion & rust can make adjustment a real bear. Also the cam holes are "D" shaped and are thus indexed on the cam bolts. This is what allows the bolts to turn the cams. Sometimes these "D" shaped holes get rounded and the bolt no longer can turn the cam. Even when these cars were newer, occasionally we had to soak the cams with WD40. Also sometimes the bolts would sieze on the bushing sleeves. One of the drawbacks of an otherwise cool set-up.