Rocker Arm Side Play Q's?

[69a100]

As you all know Tuck's build runs but has problems with valve train noise. He's got some new spacers, shims, etc. and tomm. we are going to try and quite it down. My questions is when it's all together, how much side play should there be between the arms? I'm sure that they have to be equal to the same all along the shaft with the pedastals being the items that won't move. Any and all info is welcome here on this subject. Thanks

 

[RustyRatRod]

I'm not sure there's a book spec on it or not, BUT I don't think I'd want any more than .010". Probably more like .004-.008. I'm really not sure it's critical. I do know that you don't want iron or aluminum rockers rubbing right against the hold downs like the stock ones do.

 

[69a100]

Hey Rusty- I have looked all over for a spec and can't find anything either. Not knowing what this moron put in this motor on the build, the spacer/shims are the only thing that Cr8crshr hasn't replaced, and neither of us have really gone over that area with a fine tooth comb and measured. The last time we had the covers off I did a wiggle on acouple of them and they sure seemed more than .010 but didn't put a gauge on them. The spacers on there now were machined by the builder and not out of a box, and he did keep running to the back with some spacers. I guess to grind on them, who knows??? I'll slap a gauge on them before we get to deep and see where were at. Anybody else?

 

[RustyRatRod]

My thinkin on it is, as long as there's ample room when everything gets HOT that it doesn't seize up, you're good.

 

[coloradodave]

I'm with Rusty. .010 to .020" paying attention to the rocker tip alignment with the valve stem. Also make sure and check the rocker arm to valve retainer clearance at full lift.

 

[YY1]

I was just under the valve covers of my 73 318 (which looks maaahvelous under there, BTW) and there was about 1/16-3/32 of play on a few but not all.
Motor has no noises and runs like new with 56,*** miles.

After I buttoned it up, it occured to me that I should have checked to see if the "ends" or "middles" were the ones that moved.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Yeah I'm kinda thinkin the noise aint comin from lateral movement.

 

[Meep-Meep]

This is something I've never really worried about. With the stock stamped steel setup as long as they aren't bound up you're fine and I expect them to move side to side at least .030". For the iron adjustables you have the spring that keeps them against the tabs on the hold down so not much to worry about there. I have a set of stainless roller tips that I plan to use and I'm machining the hold down blocks and adding selective washers to get about .010" per arm and centered over the valve stem. Some Chinese stuff is OK after you fix it!

Now about the valve train noise. Do you have the correct length pushrods? If you have the stock stamped rockers you will need to go through every one and check lifter plunger travel and install the appropriate length push rod. The spec is in the factory manual. I just went over this on an FE Ford and ended up with three different length pushrods (two oddballs) because of the reground cam and the variance in the base circle. Tip: Use a lifter that is dry so you can easily measure plunger travel.

 

[69a100]

Were getting a late start on this but here's where were at. The Drivers side back is about .047 across the board between each pedistal. Seems pretty sloppy compared to the numbers you guys mentioned.
So between smokin a Ham, helpin Bro on the car and this, I'm runnin around ragged. Awaiting replies.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Are they the stock crappy paddle rockers? Are the rocker shafts on the right way? Oil holes facing down and toward the valve springs?

 

[69a100]

No, Aftmarket adjustable rollers. Oil holes are correct, and the change of parts did nothing. Soooooooooooo, even though it sounds like a engine knock and some bench talking, Tuck's keepin his fingers crossed that it a reverbing noise comming from the tranny that makes it sound like a motor knock. I said wouldn't be a pisser if it was something due to the speedo not working.

 

[RustyRatRod]

They they certainly need to be shimmed up. Remember you need shims between the rockers and hold downs. The rockers don't need to rub them.

 

[69a100]

Already got it covered, thanks.

 

[cr8crshr]

Well...I got the new rocker arm keepers and spacers/shims done yesterday. Worked out really nicely I must say. I am more and more liking the newer stuff that we can use on our rides. Rusty...You were right on the spacing between the rockers and keepers. It was a tad too wide so I was able to get it to about .016 thousands as opposed to the almost .030 thousands with the older set up. For those that have asked, I am running newer roller rockers and not the cheap ones offered out there. Any way...I fired up the engine and it now actually runs smoother and a tad quieter than before. But that "tinney knock" is still there. Seeing as how I have replaced everything in this engine with all new, it is still there. The only thing left that I haven't even looked at is the possibility of "the lifter bore tolerances" are out and what I am hearing is in fact a lifter rattling around in its bore. From what was supposed to be a simple build now seems to be a complete failure on both my part and the Clown that put it together for me. I have checked the invoice from the work he did and there is no mention of any work done in that area or that needed to be. Now that doesn't mean that there wasn't anything done but at this point I don't know without pulling the engine again and tearing it down to inspect that. But although remote...in my opinion...it is still a possibility. I just wish there was a way to De-couple the tranny from the engine and still fire it up in the car to see if it just still might be the tranny making the noise and it reverberates through the engine. But being as it is a 727, and with the flex plate De-coupled from the Torque Converter there is no way of starting the engine. If I were able to do that then I could either confirm or deny that the motor is the root of the noise and visa versa.

So right now I am at a loss as to which way to go on this. To me the motor seems to be working correctly as it sounds just awesome...if I tune out the knocking...and would like to believe that after 3 tear downs and re-builds that it is right and as should be. I am toying with the thought of either just letting it sit the way it is for awhile and save up some more to procure another 383 or 400 block, buy a stroker kit, and re-build another using parts off of this 383, have the car transported to the tranny shop...I don't want to drive it right now till that issue is addressed...or cut my losses and get out from the project and move on to something else. The latter of which is sounding and becoming more and more like the direction I need to take. It's getting old real fast and I am wearing thin my patience and wallet trying to build a car instead of finding the most complete and running alternative that I can enjoy. As it sits now, I ain't really enjoying it much. Thanks to all...especially Brother Jon/69A100 and all here that have offered up support and encouragement. Time will just have to tell...cr8crshr/Tuck

 

[RustyRatRod]

What kinda camshaft are you runnin? Is it one with a really fast rate of lift? If so, they will NEVER be quiet. Roller rockers themselves in and of their design make noise. Can you post a video? What you actually have may end up being normal for a HP MoPar engine. Remember too, if you used pistons with centered pins, there's eight rattles right there, right off the bat. Stock factory type pistons have the wristpins offset to keep noise down. Any type performance piston has the wristpins centered to help unload the piston for less friction.......at the cost of more noise. Lastly, and this kinda goes along with the centered wristpins, if your compression is up there pretty good (and or cylinder pressure) that will make the pistons "rock" in the bores a little and also create some more noise. Oh and do you have floatin wristpins? There's some more noise. Couple all that with a fast acting cam and roller rockers and you've got a loud running engine compared to stock. That's how I always tell if somebody's "performance" engine is a real one or not. If it's a noisey mofo, you might better be careful. lol Get us a video up with some GOOD quality audio and we can tell you real quick what's normal and what ain't. I bet it's a badass is all.

 

[cr8crshr]

Rusty I am running a Hughes HUG HEH2328BL:

HYDRAULIC CAMSHAFT 111º LSA+3

FLAT TAPPET HYDRAULIC / ONE BOLT TIMING GEAR

Flat Tappet Hydraulic / One Bolt Timing Gear. Mild street performance, hot resto., HP exhaust or headers, performance intake, 4 bbl or 3x2. 3.55:1 gear. Some idle, performance head work, HP ported Stage I heads, 165psi suggested cylinder pressure. Hotter daily driver.

Camshaft Technical Details
Intake Valve Lift 1.5 .506"
Exhaust Valve Lift 1.5 .524"

Intake Valve Lift 1.6 .539"
Exhaust Valve Lift 1.6 .558"

Intake Duration at .050" 223°
Exhaust Duration at .050" 228°

Lobe Separation Angle 111º

Intake Opening at .050" 3.5° BTC
Exhaust Opening at .050" 48° BBC

Intake Closing at .050" 39.5° ABC
Exhaust Closing at .050" 0° ATC

Min. Suggested Cylinder PSI 160
Sweet Spot RPM 1600 - 5300

So no it is not really a fast rate cam nor is it a split duration. As far as the Rockers making noise, this I know and yes there is some sound indicating that. As for the wrist pin alignment question, you got me there. Pistons are the Speed Pro flat tops for 383 @ .030 thousands over, Molly Rings, etc. I can only assume...hate that word...that they are done correctly. I cannot tell without tearing down the motor again. Also I am not using floating wrist pins. Stock type. My compression computes to approximately 9.3 : 1 give or take a few decimal points either way. This is basically a really tame engine build and is the exact same as the one I did for my 1966 Chrysler 300 a number of years back. This Cam was a recommendation of Steve Dulcich who is a contributing writer for MOPAR Muscle Magazine. Brother Jon is using the same Cam in his 300. Not quite a RR Cam but a slight notch below it. That about sums it up...Thanks for trying to help out as this one is driving me crazy. I will work on a good video with some sound to see if maybe that will give you all an idea of what I am up against...cr8crshr/Tuck

 

[RustyRatRod]

First, If it's a Hughes cam, it's a fast rate of lift. That's all they sell. Yes, the pistons you have have centered pins. Get us a video dammit.

 

[cr8crshr]

OK Thanks...I thought that the Hughes weren't fast rate. Learned something new every day. I will get that video by the weekend. Got some Medical stuff...getting old sucks, that I have scheduled this week so most likely Sat. Car is tucked away and awaiting my return over at my Brothers house...cr8crshr/Tuck

 

[RustyRatRod]

Yeah I think it's safe to say Hughes makes the fastest rates of lift cams in the industry.