Series 2 Carrier?

Engine, Trans & Driveline

  1. Thunder65

    Thunder65 Active Member

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    Good morning all, hoping I can get some of your expert advice.
    1968 SS / GTX tribute car with Dana 60 / 3:54 gears, want to change to 4:10's but my mechanic says they will not fit due to the fact that I have a series 2 carrier
    and I need a series 3 carrier. Now I have never heard of a series 2, is there such an animal?
    To make matters worse it's also a 23 spline. I would really like to get the 4:10's to work, any suggestions?
    Thanks!
     
  2. Demonic

    Demonic Well-Known Member

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    • 5.7 hemi

      5.7 hemi FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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      I think the 4.10’s will fit your carrier, it’s the 4.56 and up that needs a different carrier. But check first as I'm a bit fuzzy on it.
       
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      • lyndondb

        lyndondb Well-Known Member

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        No expert but I have a similar problem.
        Series 2, 3 carriers are common and there is a break where things just don't fit.
        I have A 456 Dana that I want to switch to a 3.73.
        Done some research and found this article answered a lot of questions for me. http://www.crawlpedia.com/index.htm
         
      • lyndondb

        lyndondb Well-Known Member

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        [ CRAWLpedia ]
        [Off-Road Encyclopedia]
        Thick Gears and Carrier Breaks
        Car and truck axles come in a variety of gear ratios depending on their application and many aftermarket gear manufacturers extend that range even further with extra high and extra low gear ratios.

        The gear ratio in an axle determines how many times the drive shaft needs to spin in order to turn the wheels one rotation. For example, a 3.73 gear ratio requires the drive shaft to spin 3.73 times to turn the tires around once.

        In the diagram below, the drive shaft turns the pinion against the ring gear that is connected to the wheels via the axle shafts. The number of teeth on the pinion and the ring gear are what determine the gear ratio.

        [​IMG]


        The higher or "taller" a gear ratio is numerically, the more the engine needs to turn to spin the tires. Higher gear ratios work great for trucks that need more torque to get heavy loads moving while lower or "shorter" gears are better for racing and for improving highway gas mileage because the engine can turn slower at higher speeds.



        Find the correct gear ratio for your vehicle
        with our Gear Ratio Finder


        Calculate your existing gear ratio
        with out Gear Ratio Calculator





        NEW! - Need Help with Carrier Breaks and Thick Gears? Check out the new comments section below!


        [​IMG]


        Ring and Pinion Gear Sizes and Alignment
        The gear ratio of any axle can be calculated by dividing the number of teeth on the ring gear by the number of teeth on the pinion gear. For example, an axle with 41 ring gear teeth and 11 pinion gear teeth would have a 3.73 gear ratio (41/11 =3.73).

        Low gear sets have more teeth on the pinion gear than high ratio gears do and as such the overall diameter of the pinion gear tends to change significantly across the scale of ratios. Ring gears, on the other hand, maintain their size because the teeth are cut on the face of the gear and not along the circumference. As a result, and because axle housings are machined with a fixed position for the pinion and differential carrier that holds the ring gear, a gap is created between the two gears as the gear ratio increases.

        [​IMG]
        The gap between the ring gear and pinion gear is corrected in two ways: The first way is to make the ring gear thicker and the other is to use an offset differential carrier that moves the ring gear closer to the pinion. While it would be nice to avoid changing the carrier and use thicker gears for all ratios, there is a point at which the rotating mass of the additional material begins to negatively affect performance. This is why many axle manufacturers use two different carriers for high and low gear ratios.

        [​IMG]


        What is a Carrier Break?
        Axles that are designed for use with a large range of gear ratios often have two different differential carriers, one for lower gears and one for higher gears. The point at which the axle switches from one carrier to the other is called the carrier break. For example, the Dana 60 axle has a 4.10/4.56 carrier break that requires one carrier for 4.10 and numerically lower gears and another carrier for 4.56 and taller gears.

        When changing gears in an axle, it is important to determine if the axle has a carrier break and if so, which carrier it has installed. If the axle does not have a carrier break, then any aftermarket gears will fit just fine. If the axle does use a carrier break, then the first thing that needs to be checked is if the new gear ratio is on the same side of the carrier break as the existing gears or if they will be "jumping the break".

        For gear changes where the gear ratio crosses the carrier break, the installation will require the use of the other differential carrier. Luckily, aftermarket differential and locker manufacturers are aware of this and almost always offer models for both lower and higher carriers.

        Some aftermarket gear manufacturers also offer ring gear spacers and thick gears that are designed to jump a carrier break without the need for changing the carrier. These gears are not available for all applications or all gear ratios, however, whenever possible, they are a great option.







        How to Select The Right Gears and Carrier
        Step 1: Determine If Your Axle Has A Carrier Break
        Find your axle in the table below to see if it has a carrier break. If so, then you need to check and see if your current gear ratio is on the low carrier or the high carrier. If not, then all gear ratios will fit on the stock carrier and you can't go wrong.

        Step 2: Find Your Existing Gear Ratio
        If you don't know your existing gear ratio, you can use our Gear Ratio Calculator to figure that out.

        Step 3: Select Your New Gear Ratio
        Using our Gear Ratio Finder and Engine RPM Calculator, select the appropriate gear ratio for your application.

        Step 4: Check If The New Gears Jump the Carrier Break
        If your new gear ratio is within the same carrier range as the stock gears, then standard gears will work fine. If your current gear ratio is on the low carrier and your new gears are on the high carrier, then you will need to change the carrier, use a ring gear spacer, or find thick gears. If your existing gears are on the high carrier, and your new gears require the lower carrier, then you will need to change to the lower carrier.

        Current Ratio New Ratio Installation Options
        Lower Carrier Lower Carrier Standard Gears on Lower Carrier
        Lower Carrier Higher Carrier Standard Gears on Lower Carrier with Ring Gear Spacer
        Standard Gears on Higher Carrier
        Thick Gears on Lower Carrier
        Higher Carrier Lower Carrier Standard Gears on Lower Carrier
        Higher Carrier Higher Carrier Standard Gears on Higher Carrier

        Tip: Aftermarket Carriers, Limited Slips, and Lockers
        Most aftermarket differential manufacturers offer both carriers so if you plan on upgrading your differential with your new gears, make sure that you order the correct one so that you can run standard gears and avoid needing thick gears or spacers.




        [​IMG]


        Popular Axle Carrier Breaks
        Axle Low Carrier High Carrier
        AAM 9.25" All / No Break Same
        AAM 9.25" IFS All / No Break Same
        AAM 10.5" All / No Break Same
        AAM 11.5" All / No Break Same

        AMC Model 20 2.73 & Down 3.08 & Up
        AMC Model 35 3.31 & Down 3.54 & Up

        Chrysler 7.25" 2.47 & Down 2.76 & Up
        Chrysler 8.25" 2.47 & Down 2.76 & Up
        Chrysler 8.75" (All) All / No Break Same
        Chrysler 9.25" All / No Break Same
        Chrysler 10.5" All / No Break Same
        Chrysler 11.5" All / No Break Same

        Dana 27 3.73 & Down 3.92 & Up
        Dana 30 3.54 & Down 3.73 & Up
        Dana 35 3.31 & Down 3.54 & Up
        Dana 36 ICA 2.73 & Down 3.07 & Up
        Dana 44 3.73 & Down 3.92 & Up
        Dana 50 All / No Break Same
        Dana 60 4.10 & Down 4.56 & Up
        Dana 61 All / No Break Same
        Dana 70 4.10 & Down 4.56 & Up
        Dana 80 3.73 & Down 4.10 & Up

        Ford 7.5" All / No Break Same
        Ford 8" All / No Break Same
        Ford 8.8" All / No Break Same
        Ford 9 Inch All / No Break Same
        Ford 9.75" All / No Break Same
         
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        • Ghostrider 67

          Ghostrider 67 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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          So, the answer to your question is the 4:10's will fit.
           
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          • lyndondb

            lyndondb Well-Known Member

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            That is the way I read it. But as I said I am far from an exert. I even had one guy tell me that there are spacers available that really mix the discussion up.
             
          • lyndondb

            lyndondb Well-Known Member

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            Too, you need to know the spline on the axles. Some are 30, 35 etc.
             
          • lyndondb

            lyndondb Well-Known Member

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            Just curious what RPM are you at at 60 mph with the 354?
             
          • lyndondb

            lyndondb Well-Known Member

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            My mistake. Axle ratio is only important if you do change your carrier.
             
          • Thunder65

            Thunder65 Active Member

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            Thanks everyone for your input and information. After speaking with quite a few manufacturers and engineering folks, here is the answer.
            Yes spline is the key factor, Dana 60's did come one (maybe two years) with a 23 spline and a smaller carrier. To find a set of 4.10's for a 23 spline, would be like finding (so I am told) a Unicorn....They simply are either not out there or they do not exist. The best fix for this set up is to change axles to 30, 35 spline etc... And then a posi 3 series carrier, then several manufacturers have 4.10's that will work. I hope this sounds correct and makes sense, if it doesn't please chime in.
            Again, thanks everyone for the replies and information
             
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            • 5.7 hemi

              5.7 hemi FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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              You got a power lock sure grip? If so, Dr Diff has rebuild kits and also has the guts to convert it to 35 spline and you can get axles from him too. Give him a buzz, really good guy to do business with.
               
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              • Thunder65

                Thunder65 Active Member

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                Funny I have been trying to get in touch with him since yesterday. I hear he is the best.

                Thanks!
                 
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                • Thunder65

                  Thunder65 Active Member

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                  So I finally spoke with Cass at Dr. Diff. He has confirmed that there is no such thing as a Series 2 or a 2 Series carrier and that the 4.10's should fit.
                  The only issue may be that the gears are from Richmond, if so then they will not fit. Guess I will have to call the shop and see if in fact they are Richmond gears. Cass says it is not necessary to change it all out and not to waste my money, just purchase the correct 4.10 gear set. I really appreciate his honesty, however now I am totally confused, some say there is a series 2 and some say there is no such thing. By the way it is a Dana60 not a Dana61. AARRRGGGHHH!
                   
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                  • Ghostrider 67

                    Ghostrider 67 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                    I would say that Cass, and I, know what we are talking about....
                     
                  • 33 IMP

                    33 IMP Well-Known Member

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                    Since there were no gears available higher than 3.54, (lower numerically) for a dana 60, at least until the rumored 3.23 become available, why would there be a 2 series carrier? Thats a 12 bolt chevy term.
                    Like Cass says, there is a thick 4.10 set,and a thin 4.10. If you get your gears from Cass, you will get the right ones.
                     
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                    • Fran Blacker

                      Fran Blacker FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                      Hope you don't want to drive more than 20 miles in any direction. If you run a tall tire it wouldn't be to bad. Just removed 4.10's with 26" tire. Drove 15 miles at 3300 rpm a was getting passed by everybody. Just something to think about.
                       
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