Subframe Connectors and unibodies

[Rusty knuckles]

So last night I was watching Uncle Tony's Garage on YouTube and he was covering some home made torque boxes the kiwi had done on a Barracuda. They were talking about why torque boxes and not subframe connectors and said the unibodies need to be able to flex a little due to spot weld construction. They were saying that while subframe connectors make the car stiffer it will start tearing the car apart over time by breaking spot welds.

Has anyone with a lot of miles on subframe connectors seen indications of this? Everyone I've read about raves about them. Never heard of this situation before now.

 

[Kern Dog]

Tony has his moments but he is a dipshit on this issue.

 

[moparedtn]

That wasn't really the point of the video. Folks might want to watch the entire thing before making comment:

 

[pnora]

More Tony Bologna.

 

[4406bbl]

He is wrong on this, and also does not believe any non convertible mopars had factory installed front torque boxes. Some a-bodies did and 99.99999% of 6bbl and hemi e-bodies and 71 up b-bodies had them.

 

[Lefty71]

There is just such a wide variation of uses and mileage when you are talking about this sport.... you have to ask your self....how hard am I beating on this car?? And how often?? Many cars have subframe connectors...not many having actual issues falling apart ( aside from rust helping that out ). If you car is fast and thrashed, I'd say a roll bar or cage is your next logical step to stiffen the chassis.

 

[Kern Dog]

That wasn't really the point of the video. Folks might want to watch the entire thing before making comment:

He ranted against subframe connectors in a video he posted a year or more ago.
I like some of his low dough tech. I like his sense of humor and political views but in some instances, he is really "out there" like a guy that tripped on LSD for far too long.

 

[eldubb440]

lots of severe flexing can break spot welds .......frame connectors minimize the flexing....... dude must be high

 

[topside]

Basically BS. Stiff body/frame/structure and a compliant suspension work better in pretty much everything.
Twisting unibodies crack at the quarter jambs and the cowl near the A-pillar; I've seen that numerous times since the early '80s.
Also the old issue with the rear shock crossmembers breaking loose from the floor, though that was aggravated by poor spot welds.
Old drag cars - before adequate stiffening was figured out - would twist often and hard enough that the condition became permanent.
If a suspension is so stiff that there's no compliance, sure, that can rip sheetmetal, but in practice you couldn't stand to drive such a vehicle.
Torque boxes obviously work, but they were the cheapest way to stiffen problem areas; the main focus most likely being avoiding warranty claims.

 

[Rusty knuckles]

Well I didn't think that made a lot of sense.

 

[Kern Dog]

This is the guy that put a slant six in a Miata.

 

[Rusty knuckles]

I didn't follow that but can appreciate it. I like his bottle rocket stuff and that has inspired me to build a dirt cheap turbo 318.

 

[Lefty71]

Well I didn't think that made a lot of sense

And here's why, IMO...
The same engineers, which he raves about, clearly said to themselves... "this Unibody sh*t we designed with the Imperials and C-bodys in mind, ain't working for our new Max Wedge (and then Hemi) B-body cars"....
So, what did they do?? They started adapting as needed..... if they had thought of the floor contour subframe connectors, they would have used them, plain and simple!!! My two cents, Lefty71

 

[dvw]

Car in the picture hasn't torn out any spot welds. It has subframes welded to the floor. Cage tied into the ladder bar mounts, B pillars, dash, firewall, and shock towers. I don't see any evidence of flex. I'm sure it does throwing 900+ Hp at a nearly 60 year old unibody. 800 passes over 10 years span. Regularly carries the wheels 50 ft out at mid 1.2x 60ft. It has cracked every spoke in the rear wheels and broke 2 sets of Dana gears.
Doug

 

[dspur]

Basically BS. Stiff body/frame/structure and a compliant suspension work better in pretty much everything.
Twisting unibodies crack at the quarter jambs and the cowl near the A-pillar; I've seen that numerous times since the early '80s.
Also the old issue with the rear shock crossmembers breaking loose from the floor, though that was aggravated by poor spot welds.
Old drag cars - before adequate stiffening was figured out - would twist often and hard enough that the condition became permanent.
If a suspension is so stiff that there's no compliance, sure, that can rip sheetmetal, but in practice you couldn't stand to drive such a vehicle.
Torque boxes obviously work, but they were the cheapest way to stiffen problem areas; the main focus most likely being avoiding warranty claims.

Back in the early seventies I had 69 1/2 A12 Bee, started hearing banging sounds when I would hit most any size bump. Turns out the right rear shock tower broke loose from the floor...

 

[33 IMP]

I Haven't taken a thing he says seriously, since he said how wonderful and important pinion snubbers are.
Hahahahaha!

 

[Photon440]

If he had thought about it, saying that the subframe connectors makes the car stiffer must mean that the new connectors are shouldering the twisting load. Reducing the flex won't add a speck of stress to the original spot welds.

 

[RemCharger]

I was going to say something but it's pretty much summed up already.

 

[moparedtn]

The video began with him showing off his friends' improved torque boxes he had been installing on
both a Mopar and a Mustang - and from my view, what Kiwi was doing with those was indeed very
nice, much nicer than the factory boxes.
They then discussed the importance of those when upping the power in our cars - also sound advice.

Tony went over some of the history of where the torque boxes came from originally, along with some general
knowledge on how the unibodies were designed at Mopar vs. at Ford, etc.
Nothing wrong with any of that, either - if someone with little knowledge of these factory chassis
were to watch that video, they'd learn something - but that was the crux of the video, to highlight what
his friend had created in the way of an improved torque box for our cars.
(If he decided to make and sell those, I'd buy 'em from Kiwi - they're that nice.)

Where things tangented off was when he started all that sub-frame connector rap....
Lookit, I can feel the flex in Fred (as was the case in most all of my previous Mopars) just driving down the
road - and he's certainly not a fire-breathing race car.
If that's the case with only 450hp on board, I can only imagine what it's like for someone with double that...
Fred would already have sub-frame connectors on him if I could weld, put it that way (I never have).

Oh, and KD? Agreed on Tony being a product of the 60's - of that I have little doubt.
That said, he does put out a lot of stuff that just makes sense, too - and some I vehemently disagree with.

 

[moparedtn]

@nodust
Care to elaborate on your Red X??