Suspension setup ?

[G-man]

Hi

I want to upgrade my suspension and torsion bars on my 1968 Dodge Charger.

This car is primarily cruising/street driving, so it needs to handle decent (not throw u out of the seat around bends and bumps as it does now) however I want it to also be optimum for drag (straight line acceleration) without compromising the intended cruising/street driving.

Im going to be running a cross ram 1960's 426ci Hemi that I will be getting my hands on.

I been recomended 1.22" torsion bars, 1.25" front sway bar, 1.0" (if this is biggest) rear sway bar and Bilstein Shock absorbers and added 2-3 leafs to my original leafsprings that these cars came with (1 reverse to eliminate rear wheel axle hop)

My problem so called with that setup above is this...

Superstock springs run 6 leafs left 8 leafs right, good for straight line. Adding the rear and front sway bars and big torsion bars would make the car handle awesome, but adding all that extra weight cant be good for straight line. SInce i wont be at a circuit driving 200mph around corners this sounds excessive to me. At same time, a car that launches dead straight and doesnt drop the nose, would help for acceleration as it will drive square.

Sway bars shouldn't effect the straight line, so if i had SS springs and sway bars it would go straight hard and handle awesome.

A street car that rolls and bounces is not good, so maybe the above setup will be the best and also launch straight not twist and turn (Hemis make the car lean, with sway bars the car will launch straight rather then left side comming off ground which should improve acceleration?). I mean, dodge vipers are fast as hell and they got everything SOLID front and rear and what not.

THis is whats running through my head. Ideas appreciated.

 

[rolling_Thunder]

lets see... overly small torsion bars give poor handling... exsessively big = poor weight transfer... I would say you'd be good to go with .96" bars... good mix of what you want... factory XHD leafs... stock front sway bar...

Mopar action i believe did some work to a 67 GTX with stock style suspension - the article was something titled like "hook, corner, and whoa" --- they had that GTX running 11's or some such and pulling .96G on a skidpad...

 

[rumblefish360]

The OE springs for the 440 and HEMI cars are now being resold as OE-XHD springs and have 1 leaf more on one side for axle control. These are what I would use in a street pounder. Since your car is launching straight now, the only question is are your axle's winding up and hoping? If they are, then I'd upgrade.

The biggest diameter anti roll (Sway bars) is what I would use and a good quality gas shock on all 4 corners.

Stock diameter T-bars should be just fine. The T-bars control up and down movement. The shock dampen the movement.

Next, for straight line performance is a set of good and as wide as possible sticky tires. The OE XHD springs will handle the power. You'll just need to make sure they keep the car straight.

 

[beezee]

I agree with Alex and Rob on there recommendations for a good driving and handling street car but once that Hemi drops under your hood add frame connecters and hemi torque box,s for the straight launches with out twisting up the body

 

[Revhendo]

Gotta agree with the subframe connectors and torque boxes. Once you have a solid platform, the rest should fall into place.

But, the question is, what do you REALLY want in your cars abilities? Do you want a nice cruiser that will lay down the numbers at the strip? Do you want to embarass the tojos in the corners? Do you want a car that accellerates like an F-16 and corners like a Ferrari and rides like a Cadillac?

There are things you can do to improve one feature that can help another ability, but only to a point. You might think that going with bigger T-bars and adding a big sway bar would help straight line acceleration, but, not so much. You might also notice that most Mopar drag cars use light T-bars and eliminate the sway bar altogether. You actually want the quick lift of the front end provided by light bar and the sway bar limits the reaction of the front suspension. Inversely, going too big on T-bar and sway bar will cause the vehicle to ride harsh and understeer, thus plowing straight through the guardrail on your favorite onramp. I would pretty much guess that SS springs on the back with a one inch sway bar would give a harsher ride and cause the car to oversteer wich would balance out your bodywork by putting your rear end thru your favorite guardrail. OK, way over simplified, but you get the idea.

Ultimately, it will be up to you to tune your car to your expectations. Familiarize yourself with what each suspension piece will do for you. Spring, swaybar and shock. Don't forget things such as brakes and your wheel/tire package. It sounds like a great project, good luck and keep us posted.

Rev.

 

[69 Runner]

IF there are adjustable swaybars available that is the way to go. You can then take the car from understeer to oversteer and bias it from side to side depending on what kind of track (or course) you're running. I had fully adjustable stuff under one of the Porsches I used to own. The rear bar had "sliders" that were tightened and loosened with an allen wrench I kept in the console. That way I could change the car's handling in under 30 seconds. That car pulled over 1G both clockwise and counter clockwise.

The stiffer end will be the one that lets go first.

One last thing. When properly installed and adjusted, swaybars should be parallel to the pavement when at rest. I.E. horizontal.

 

[696pack]

Gotta agree with the subframe connectors and torque boxes. Once you have a solid platform, the rest should fall into place.

But, the question is, what do you REALLY want in your cars abilities? Do you want a nice cruiser that will lay down the numbers at the strip? Do you want to embarass the tojos in the corners? Do you want a car that accellerates like an F-16 and corners like a Ferrari and rides like a Cadillac?

There are things you can do to improve one feature that can help another ability, but only to a point. You might think that going with bigger T-bars and adding a big sway bar would help straight line acceleration, but, not so much. You might also notice that most Mopar drag cars use light T-bars and eliminate the sway bar altogether. You actually want the quick lift of the front end provided by light bar and the sway bar limits the reaction of the front suspension. Inversely, going too big on T-bar and sway bar will cause the vehicle to ride harsh and understeer, thus plowing straight through the guardrail on your favorite onramp. I would pretty much guess that SS springs on the back with a one inch sway bar would give a harsher ride and cause the car to oversteer wich would balance out your bodywork by putting your rear end thru your favorite guardrail. OK, way over simplified, but you get the idea.

Ultimately, it will be up to you to tune your car to your expectations. Familiarize yourself with what each suspension piece will do for you. Spring, swaybar and shock. Don't forget things such as brakes and your wheel/tire package. It sounds like a great project, good luck and keep us posted.

Rev.

Exactly right. It is hard to have the absolutely best of both worlds in the same car. Do you want a 1/4 mile car or a corner carver? About the only thing that works for both cars is the frame connectors and torque boxes as it strengthens the entire unibody. The above is what you need for best launch of a 1/4 mile car. Although it is not really lifting just the front of the car that you want, the front and rear should lift at the same rate. The lighter bars and no sway bar help with that.

 

[G-man]

I want it to be totaly street with straight line as the optimum goal. I wont be going 200mph around corners (only drifting if anything for fun) but it cant be a bouncy heap of steel either as thats not good street.

 

[Revhendo]

Your priority will be to take the flex out of the body first. Subframe connectors and torque boxes. If you've ever seen a Charger crack at the top of the B pillar, you'll know what I mean. Don't use the SS springs, they're shorter in the A segment and it's a leverage issue on the street. Go with the XHD's on the rear. I would possibly consider one step above the .96 bars and a sway bar in the stock range on the nose. That crossram motor is going to have some weight on it, and for the street you'll appreciate a little more spring. If you're running skinny's on the nose, drop down on the T-bar size, you'll only overload the tire, and handling will really be a secondary concern.
Try to keep the wheel and tire combo as light as possible.

Anyone have any other ideas?

Rev.

 

[G-man]

Its a 68 charger with a 4 speed manual. Super stock springs are shorter than normal ones?

I am g etting 2-3 added leafs to the original leafs from a professional suspension shop that will get them to make the car 'squat down' under acceleration (i guess this is good for what im after?)

torque boxes?

conectors?

explain a little, i dont know much technical

Torsion bars are small block torsion bars with a 383 sitting on it and the thing drives like a pig, ur lucky to stay in ur seat.

So guide me step by step from what i have:

a) 1968 charger

b) Front sway bar (small one)

c) Torsion bars are the original ones that sat with the original 318 motor.Now has a 383 ontop of small block t-bars...

d) 4 speed hurst

e) no rear sway bar

f) original leaf springs (howmany more should be added from this profesional shop? should it match SS springs 6 or 8 leafs or is this not good)

e) Cross ram 426 hemi going in 500hp and 600 ft/lb of torque (383 comming out).

Thats what it is, what shoud i pull out, add, change etc to do what im saying. If the car can hit 11 seconds, accelerate off the line like a ferrari F40 and corner like 1, cool.

I dont want to go any more power than that as I want to be able to drive it, needs to be economical LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL i know, so if making it hard like a F40 , if it can still hit 11 seconds cool, if Im going to "lose" 1 entire second due to bigger T bars and sway bars than Not cool.

If the loss in acceleration time will be next to nothing by going the biggest of everything then id rather it handle awesome as it wont lose anything noticible in time anyways but if my car will go 12 seconds with that setup we spoke of at start and by going .96 t bars etc will make it go 11 without touching 1 HP, then its worth considering.

Hopefuly u get it.

 

[beezee]

Lots of suspension and chassis mods for mopars found here http://66-67charger.com/forum/index.php?board=47.0

 

[G-man]

ok spanner in the works guys

A guy running a 350ci chev down here in an old Holden Torana. Standing quarter mile is in the 9's and he runs sway bars front and back and massive torsion bars + bilstein shocks. The car will handle corners all day long and still runs 9s.

I understand that rear sway bar stops springs from working as good but what does it hinder, 0.1 of a second while gaining a hell a lot on cornering ability?

Why option for light T-bars for weight transfer, no rear sway bar (to let springs work better) etc when all ud lose apparantely by going everyhing huge is .5 of a second. That car runs 9s and handles awesome. They took the rear sway bar off on that car n it is not handable on the street (rear end all over the place).

Maybe he wud gain 0.5 on the strip with it off and lightening his torsion bars from a 1.18 or something down to a 0.96 but that little (if any) increase in straight line it makes the car handle like a bag of wet cement on the road.

I mean look, stick 750 horsepower in a viper, ul be running 10s n on the circuit out handle most things. Stick the biggest of everything in the charger would handle awesome n go 0.5 or so slower in a straight line. Gain half a second (so 10.5 second charger instead of 11) but not very controlable on street.

It seems the lighter T-bars and no sway bar in rear doesnt increase the cars acceleration as much as it hinders cornering ability. It seems with big or small it can go as fast, but it will never handle the same for the minor increase u may get going everything small.

Another guy in the states racing said this:

The closest thing I have to direct comparison is two of my cars; Car 1, 425 horse small block, .96 t-bars 1.125 sway bar, XHD springs, no rear sway, high pressure gas shocks, weighed 3200 pounds ran 13.2 at the strip, cornered flat, left hard. Car 2, same 425 horse small block, .88 t-bars, no front sway bar, SS springs, no rear sway, lightweight drag shocks, weighed 3000 pounds, ran 12.5 at the strip, rolled over like a pig in corners, left hard enough to almost pull the front tires.

Car 2 runs horrible torsion bars, handles useless (straight line application only) weighed in 200lbs less, ran 0.7 faster.

Lighten up car 1 by 200lbs and car 2 becomes less than 0.7 seconds faster and still car 2 wont handle at all on the road while car 1 being a minor bit slower (car vs car) will be able to race ferraris in how good it handles.

I dont get the point of smaller stuff when its not seconds faster yet it is a hell alot of handling sacrificed for nothing worth mentioning in acceleration gain.

I know u guys said SS springs become harsh... what do u classify harsh? I like a car that feels solid like a viper. When it feels soft I dont like it cause it doesnt feel like u can push it limits. To me a firm driver such as the vipers feels good and sturdy. To me thats not harsh. Is ur definition of harsh something else to what i am talking about?

HELP!

 

[69 Runner]

Will running with or without make a change in how the car handles or how fast it is in a straight line? Yes. But remember a half second is an eternity in a quarter mile. That is at least FIVE car lengths. An embarrassment. Spanking.

Sounds like your mind is made up to do what you want to no matter what anyone here says. So build the car with as much handling as you can, put as much HP under the hood as you can possibly afford, then hope to GOD you can keep it going straight when you hit the "skinny"

 

[G-man]

Hi

No i havent made my mind up... i thought that would have been clear from the hundred messages lol. Well I will have a starting point to go off. Friend has a 70 Charger, Super stock springs (8 right 6 left) front and rear sway bar. Just gotta ask what size T-bars he has and go for a drive in it and see how it all feels. If it feels good enough for what I want, then SS springs (better for drag) and hard feel and the .96 (if thast the T-bars he has) is the way to go. If it feels too wobly for my liking, then I know I need bigger. Thanks for your help, 0.96 T bars are in consideration (rear sway bar looks weird to me so id RATHER not have 1 - looks messy in the back) n yeah, keep you posted.

 

[696pack]

Based on your original post.

If you are going to run a Hemi and want to run it primarily on the street as a cruiser, I would forget about the SS springs as they are designed for drag racing. I would use the standard Hemi suspension springs, the biggest torsion bars available, and the largest sway bar for best freeway speed handling.

Where you are losing everyone is with your comment about wanting it to be "optimal" on the drag strip. You can't have both. A road car and a drag car are two different animals, especially with a nose heavy big block or Hemi.

The best compromise between the two is basically like the factory built it. You can improve on this with superior shocks and larger sway bars and torsion bars.

For best all around rear end you can't beat a 3.54 just as the factory originally specifed for Hemi equipped street cars. Unless you are going to run an overdrive trans then you can run deeper gears like 4.10s or 4.30s.

That is about it, you can't reinvent the wheel.

 

[G-man]

thanks

The biggest is 1.22" T-bars, 1.25" front sway bar, 1.0" rear sway bar (is the rear neccessary? I seriously would rather go without since it looks messy to me but il put it in if its a need/must)

When i said optimum drag (losing everyone) I meant on the street. Meaning, dont make it handle 2G around corners while losing 2 seconds in a straight line, id rather gain a second straight line and handle 0.8-1.0G on skidpad. Why? Il never drive it 1G around corners on the street so it doesnt need to handle excessively while sacrificing straight line which can be used on street now n then, but if straight line sacrificied is minimum with the biggest of everything and yet major improvent on corners, then go with what u gain more of and dont worry about what u lose next to nothing on.

I want it to be a street pounder not a ferrari on a race track where i will never go.

 

[696pack]

thanks

The biggest is 1.22" T-bars, 1.25" front sway bar, 1.0" rear sway bar (is the rear neccessary? I seriously would rather go without since it looks messy to me but il put it in if its a need/must)

When i said optimum drag (losing everyone) I meant on the street. Meaning, dont make it handle 2G around corners while losing 2 seconds in a straight line, id rather gain a second straight line and handle 0.8-1.0G on skidpad. Why? Il never drive it 1G around corners on the street so it doesnt need to handle excessively while sacrificing straight line which can be used on street now n then, but if straight line sacrificied is minimum with the biggest of everything and yet major improvent on corners, then go with what u gain more of and dont worry about what u lose next to nothing on.

I want it to be a street pounder not a ferrari on a race track where i will never go.

Rear sway bar is not necessary or even hardly effective with left springs.

No worries about your Charger ever hanging with a Ferrari in the corners.:tongueflap:

If you have the chance before a 1/4 mile street race, lossen up the front sway bar brackets for that race, it may make a slight difference.

 

[Revhendo]

Dude, no offense intended, but you're so screwed into the ground, I doubt you're gonna see daylight. You now say you don't want to handle like a Ferrari, but that ain't what you said at the end of post #10. You talk about your friends Charger with a 6 to 8 spring bias. Are you just confusing the HD springs with the SHORTER and more purpose built SS springs?
69 runner is right, .7 seconds is almost 5 lengths. And aren't you the one who said you didn't want to lose that all important second from your straight line time? Seven tenths is closer to ONE second than it is being just a little off. Even though it gives me a headache, I didn't reread where you ever stated a wheel and tire combo. Are you going to acheive all of this miraculous supercar stuff rolling on 20's?

To top everything off, you start throwing in the Viper comparisons. Really?

Fine, I say you are absolutely right. Thank you for uncluttering our minds.
Put those 1.22 T-bars on with that 1.25 sway bar on. Add the bitchen springs that your guy will make for you that will make your car SQUAT like every Mopar should. And your right, the rear sway bar looks messy, you should leave it off.

Me, I am selling everything, buying a Holden Manaro, swapping in an old 312 out of a '57 T-bird and am going to run 8's.
At Willow Springs.....

The Right Honorable Reverend Hendo.......

 

[Revhendo]

OH, and you should keep the stock 4 wheel drum brakes. The discs just add extra weight and don't have as much lining as a drum brake shoe.....

 

[69 Runner]

Someone grab a hose and put that :campfire: out:rolling: