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The old 50-Fastest List - was #18-#22 really a 426/365 or a MaxWedge?

DeuceCoupe

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Hi there, I am revisiting the old 50-Fastest list, trying to sort things out apples to apples. A few of those old road tests seem a little too good to be true.

One of them is the #18 or #22, depending on your version of the list.
Allegedly bone stock 1964 Polara 426/365hp 4spd-3.23, ran
13.70 at 107

https://myclassicgarage.com/social/posts/80592-22-the-list-1964-dodge-polara-426-wedge

I have a pretty good computer program (the Gonkulator) written over the last 40 years, and no way short of a hurricane tailwind I can match that 107mph. I know that seems slow for today, but back then, the fastest HEMI road tests I have for stockers was 105-107mph, with a prototype aero Charger-500 at 109mph.

The idea of a brick-like Polara with that grocery getter 426/365 turning 107mph seems doubtful. I have tons of old magazine road tests but not that one (Hot Cars, Feb 1964) so I don't know the details.

Motor Trend August 1962 tested a 413/410 Dart automatic to 14.40 at 101mph showroom stock, or 13.44 at 109.8mph with open pipes and driver only. Ok no surprise there, but since the muffled 413/410 only turned 101mph in that little Dart, I'd expect the grocery-store 426/365 to be a lot slower than even 101mph, and certainly not 107mph.

Does anybody recall this old road test or can you shed any light on it?
 
I collect old 60's magazines and have read many follow up articles on some of the tests. It's very possible (they did a swap) considering Pontiac put 421 SD motors into some cars. The Charger 500 had open exhaust and slicks. The Buick GS is reported to have been running slicks. Writers/drivers would do whatever possible to make them run better than the next car. Made for good magazine sales.
 
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Not in this lifetime. Old road tests are all over the map. Some are slow, usually done by Motor Trend. Others are unbelievable for stock stuff. Look at some of the Pure Stock stuff being run today. Though some have been tweeted look at some of the slower runs. That'll give a good indication. My bet is a Street wedge would be lucky to get in the 14's or 100mph. Especially on stock tires with a 3.23.
Doug
 
Not in this lifetime. Old road tests are all over the map. Some are slow, usually done by Motor Trend. Others are unbelievable for stock stuff. Look at some of the Pure Stock stuff being run today. Though some have been tweeted look at some of the slower runs. That'll give a good indication. My bet is a Street wedge would be lucky to get in the 14's or 100mph. Especially on stock tires with a 3.23.
Doug
here's how to get a good idea. from amatuers to pro's driving a street car. times will vary alot. ronnie sox picked up 1/2 sec. in same car driven by non pro's:
 
No way anyone takes a 98 mph car and gets it to go 107. Now I fully believe that it's possible to make a 13 second car run 15's, or worse. But you have to start with enough power/weight ratio (and traction) to be able to get it there in the first place. Take a look at the 426 street wedge heads and cam, yuk.
Doug
 
(MoparBlood) That is one of the best YouTube's ever! And (dvw) agreed, let me use the YouTube to make my point if I can:

The YouTube lets 4 drivers run each of 4 early-1966 cars and averages the ET/MPH:
14.37 at 100.4 Chevelle 396/360 (the L78 wasn't offered yet)
15.39 at 92.6 Fairlane 390/335 (an extra slow one)
14.43 at 99.6 GTO 389/348
14.00 at 104.0 Belvedere 426/425 hemi
13.29 at 107.9 Same hemi driven by Ronnie Sox (at end of clip)
Awesome stuff! All that tire squeal brought back lots of memories.

I've been Gonkulating cars like this - the 50-Fastest and others including of course this set - the top offerings of each make each year, with a consistent methodology, eg same weather, 300 lb load, traction G's based on the same %Front/%Rear formula, same gears, same accessories (none), etc. The engines and cars have been validated against hundreds of dyno and road tests (and strip cars, like most lately Wookie's Barney!). EDIT: I should add that for exhaust, I allow a good system of whatever diameter the factory exhaust iron will allow, from 2" to 2.5" duals and good loose mufflers. I DONT Gonkulate these w/exhaust open in general as it is a street comparison. EDIT EDIT: I am adding the $MSRP, in today's dollars, for each of the cars below. Just the driveline and a radio and heater, no bling. They are still bargains as they are cheaper than today's average rental cars!

Here is what I gonkulate (compute) for this set:
14.18 at 97.9 Chevelle 396/360 $23,550
14.49 at 95.2 Fairlane 390/335 (actually tuned up first) $23,500
14.40 at 97.5 GTO 389/348 $23,610
13.78 at 102.6 Belvedere 426/425 hemi $27,680 (allegedly "pricey")
13.15 at 105.7 same hemi driven by Ronnie Sox
(My Ronnie Sox model is calibrated to when Ronnie drove that A12 Road Runner to 12.91 at 111.8)

I think things are pretty consistent with the YouTube stuff.

So, here, using the same Gonkulating (Computing) is that 1964 426/365 Street Wedge:
14.53 at 96.6
That is a LONG way from the 107mph in the "Hot Cars" article from the 50-Fastest. Even if Ronnie Sox drove the car instead of his Thunderbolt, it takes a lot, as dvw said, to go from 96.6mph to 107mph - effectively about 100hp.
Backing this up even more are known period road test MPH of the 426/365 4-speed:
89-89-92-95.5 mph, and then out of nowhere, 107mph.

I used my same Gonkulator model on the 426/425 Max Wedge:
13.29 at 108.4 computed. A lot closer to that 107mph road test.

This is why I wondered, if anybody had the actual article from Feb 1964, to see what car they actually tested. Maybe it was a street wedge with a max wedge top end and open headers?

Hats off to Mopar while we are at it - they took the "GTO Recipe" to the next level with the Hemi.
And unlike the "#1 Cobra Roadster" on that 50-fastest list, of which a total of 39 cars were made, I count over 10,000 Hemi cars from 1966-1971. In todays dollars, they were in the $25,000-$29,000 price range too. A bargain compared to today's outer-space prices.
 
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I agree with Doug that a stock 426 street wedge with 3.23 gears is not going to run 13.70 @ 107. In the Max Wedge cars the exh was made to have the cutouts open as when its closed its very restrictive as you can tell by looking at the bend before the cutouts. Yes I believe the 62 Dart Maxie will run low 13's @ 109 with the cutouts open but no way the 426 street wedge on 3.23 gears will run 13's. Maybe high 14's at best. Ron
 
How times have changed. A lot of those old 'fastest 50' would have serious competition with today's rental cars:

These are all V6 models....

2017 Chrysler 200 -14.4 @ 95mph
2018 Toyota Camry -14.4 @ 100mph
2017 Camaro -13.5 @ 103mph
2017 Challenger -14.5 @ 96.9mph
2015 Kia Cadenza -14.5 @ 102mph
2016 Hyundai Genesis -13.9 @ 103mph (coupe)
 
I keep a copy of the list on the wall of my garage. I'm a fan and owner of the 69 440 6bbl Road Runner. Love that it's third...hate that the Cobra and Vette were included.
50 Fastest.JPG
 
I have that same chart some place around here.
I turned a 12.96 with my A12 back in 1970. Still have time cards and trophy's from York Us 30 from back then.
I beat a Chevelle SS LS6 454 in the finals there two times.
When we ran the first time I beat him and when we went to get our time cards the girl said that the end lights were not working and we had to run again. I got a "by" HE NEVER CAME BACK OUT TO BE WOOPED AGAIN.
I no longer own the car but it is just 8 miles down the road from my house, he does not want to sell it.
I bought it new in 1969.

IMG_8156.JPG
 
I keep a copy of the list on the wall of my garage. I'm a fan and owner of the 69 440 6bbl Road Runner. Love that it's third...hate that the Cobra and Vette were included. View attachment 556114
Your in box is full. Could I get a copy of the chart please? Where in Pa are you? I'm just north of York.
 
I am in Harleysville, PA. Just north of Philadelphia. My RR is an original 383 car. It shows me as the original owner, but my grandfather purchased it from Lansdale Chrysler Plymouth. I checked my inbox, and it is empty. I'll send a note to your inbox with my email address. Feel free to reach out to me. I cloned my RR to an A12. It has a 496 with a small solid roller cam. it went 11.07 @ 123 last year in street trim. Hoping for a 10.99 this spring!
air pressure in Chicken3.JPG
 
Nice...................where do you race it?
 
Cecil, Atco, E-Town, Island, Beaver Springs, and Maple Grove...in that order LOL. MG is still tough on racers, but they're not as bad as they used to be. Typically I race "FRUSTRATION". The RR is my street car. Ironically it's as fast as the race car!
Cecil Launch June 2016 Runner Up.JPG
 
I'll look you up a beaver this year.
I don't race anymore.................. afraid to brake something.
 
Hey DeuceCoupe, could you please run some numbers on this "stock" '72 Satellite Sebring Plus that does 13 second quarter mile times? If it wera a Hemi, I could believe it, but a 400?

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/m...-Plymouth-Satellite-Sebring-Plus/3728861.html

From the article:
No radical weight-saving measures have taken place--Randy's Satellite is factory weight minus only the spare tire and jack. Thus far, the 3,761-pound Satellite and its pilot have dipped into the 13s together: His best run, on repro bias-ply rubber, is a 13.89 at 98.5 MPH, with a 1.94 60-foot. "I believe that to be an excellent time for a low-compression engine in a fairly heavy car," Randy tells us. We tend to agree. Over time, Randy has clearly perfected his prep and launch techniques--one doesn't get a 13-second run out of a two-ton Mopar and 255 horses without some know-how. "I typically like to do a dry burnout since treaded tires tend to hold water and can make for some slippery launches," he says. "I like to power-brake it against the converter, which is about 1,400-1,500 RPM and then mash the throttle as long as the track can hold it. I like to shift myself at 5,200-5,300 RPM--that's about max for the 400. It will cross the finish line at 4,600-4,700 RPM." All of this was accomplished with the factory-assembled powertrain.
 
Hey DeuceCoupe, could you please run some numbers on this "stock" '72 Satellite Sebring Plus that does 13 second quarter mile times? If it wera a Hemi, I could believe it, but a 400?

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/m...-Plymouth-Satellite-Sebring-Plus/3728861.html

From the article:
No radical weight-saving measures have taken place--Randy's Satellite is factory weight minus only the spare tire and jack. Thus far, the 3,761-pound Satellite and its pilot have dipped into the 13s together: His best run, on repro bias-ply rubber, is a 13.89 at 98.5 MPH, with a 1.94 60-foot. "I believe that to be an excellent time for a low-compression engine in a fairly heavy car," Randy tells us. We tend to agree. Over time, Randy has clearly perfected his prep and launch techniques--one doesn't get a 13-second run out of a two-ton Mopar and 255 horses without some know-how. "I typically like to do a dry burnout since treaded tires tend to hold water and can make for some slippery launches," he says. "I like to power-brake it against the converter, which is about 1,400-1,500 RPM and then mash the throttle as long as the track can hold it. I like to shift myself at 5,200-5,300 RPM--that's about max for the 400. It will cross the finish line at 4,600-4,700 RPM." All of this was accomplished with the factory-assembled powertrain.

A fun link!
I suspected Pure Stock Muscle Car Drags (PSMCD) when I saw the et/mph and sure enough. Its just too clean and too right.
I suspect this is a fairly high level (I've seen higher) PSMCD car, and for the most part they do NOT run like assembly line vintage factory cars. It's a fun series, for sure - and my favorite to follow, since NHRA "stock" is anything but, and F.A.S.T. is, well, again nice but a black hole for megabucks. So PSMCD is a good series, but your typical PSMCD car of today runs about like an mediocre NHRA stock-class car back circa 1970. Go here for lots of results:

http://www.psmcdr.com/past-years/

So, using the same Gonkulator procedure above, a well tuned Sebring 400/255(net) factory stock Gonkulates to
307 gross hp
256 net hp
2.33
15.01 at 92.5 mph

The Hemmings car, I Gonkulated as a prepped PSMCD car. My 1st guess hit of the enter key on old factory traction was
2.10
13.70 at 100.8

I had to DETUNE it a little from max PSMCD prep (+1.5cr compression over stock etc) to
346 gross hp
299 net hp
1.95
13.85 at 98.2 mph
Close enough!
The PSMCD results are all over the place (and so are rumored engine investment$), some run like old period road tests, some run more like an old NHRA stock-class (or even super-stock) car. This Hemmings car is closer to the latter.
 
Thanks, the article mentioned the owner was well-known in pure stock drags. He sure must have some aces up his sleeve.
 
How times have changed. A lot of those old 'fastest 50' would have serious competition with today's rental cars:

These are all V6 models....

2017 Chrysler 200 -14.4 @ 95mph
2018 Toyota Camry -14.4 @ 100mph
2017 Camaro -13.5 @ 103mph
2017 Challenger -14.5 @ 96.9mph
2015 Kia Cadenza -14.5 @ 102mph
2016 Hyundai Genesis -13.9 @ 103mph (coupe)

My 2015 chrysler 200 S front wheel drive went 14.01
 
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