Timing issues 1970 383 in a 66 Charger

1966-1967 Dodge Charger Forum

  1. Father Son 55

    Father Son 55 Member

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    A friend of mine came over and looked at our engine numbers. He advised we have a 1970 383 in our 1966 Charger we purchased. I have problems timing the engine. I have a Snap On timing light that you can dial to the desired degree. I set it at 12.5 degrees. With the vacuum advance hose removed. It is an electronic distributor that came with the car.
    The question is should the timing mark on the balancer line up with the hole in the timing marker at 12.5 degrees? Or one of the ATC marker lines? What is the hole in the marker. Is it TDC? Or the mark above the hole?

    Next issue, in most photos I see the vacuum advance appears to be pointed almost directly at the number one cylinder. To get our engine to run the best I must turn the distributor almost as far as it will go towards the radiator. Is it possibly 180 degrees out? It was installed buy the previous owner. I would greatly appreciate any help on these items!!!

    On Dec 10, 2019, at 10:04 PM, FBBO Mopar Forum <admin@forbbodiesonly.com> wrote:
     
  2. 65-440

    65-440 Well-Known Member

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    If your setting your timing light to 12.5°, you want to see zero on the balancer lined up with the hole ........ as far as the vac advance canister position, that's really irrelevant. It'll point wherever it points once your timing is where it needs to be.
     
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    • BeepBeepRR

      BeepBeepRR FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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      When you have your timing light set at 12.5 degrees it should be 12.5 BTDC before top dead center. Not ATDC After Top Dead Center... That is not where you want the spark to come into play. You want it before the piston reaches TDC.

      So you set timing at BTDC with vacuum advance unplugged from the carb. Make sure to put a cap off the port. Set your timing with the light @12.5 with the line in the hole at 0 when the car is running your light should say 12.5 and the line should line up with the hole while the engine is running.

      This may help you out..

      The opposite of BTDC is ATDC or after top dead center. This describes an ignition event that is initiated after the piston reaches TDC and is already traveling downward in the cylinder bore. In engine parlance, when the ignition event is begun BTDC the timing is advanced and when it happens ATDC it is retarded.

      Great Video on setting your timing.
       
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      • 493 Mike

        493 Mike FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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        If the oil pump drive shaft is not oriented with the slot parallel with the crank shaft centerline at TDC on #1 cylinder the cap wiring may have been rotated to correct for improper pump drive installation. All the old Motor manuals show correct orientation.
        Mike
         
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        • Don Frelier

          Don Frelier FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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          Just be sure you understand the basics here:
          The dial back light delays the timing flash the number of degrees you set on the timing light.
          An example:
          Your car is running and the timing advance is exactly 10 degrees before top dead center (10 Deg BTDC).
          with the dial back light set to 0, the light would flash when the balancer is 10 degrees before the TDC mark on the timing cover.
          Now when you dial back to 10 degrees (delay the light flash) the light will flash right when the balancer is at 0 degrees or TDC.
          You haven't changed anything on the car, it's just easier to see and read on the light how much advance you have.

          Can you show a good picture of your timing chain cover and balancer marks so we can help answer where TDC would be?
           
        • Father Son 55

          Father Son 55 Member

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          The location of the vacuum advance is not the same as most pictures I have seen, ours is turned towards the radiator a lot more. And still needs to go more. To get 12.5 degrees at 500 rpm. Problem is the cap hits the head and won’t go more! That is why I think it maybe 180 out? Or maybe the plug wires need rotated back on the cap? Something is wrong? Appears the engine was rebuilt it is very clean on the inside and runs, but not perfect for now. Is it possible they put the timing chain a few teeth off? Here are some photos of the timing cover hole and how the advance sits to make it run!

          Also is this the factory radiator? Does not appear to be! Also a pic of a sticker on it.

          We purchased a 67 Charger parts car. It is a factory 4 speed with a sure grip. No engine. Would you make the 66 a four speed car or leave it an automatic? Our automatic has a fresh rebuild! Any advice would be appreciated!!

          At this time we are just trying to get this drivable so we can figure out all mechanical issues before a complete restoration. And my 21 year old son can have a little fun with her first! He absolutely loves this car and I am proud of him for that! I am retired at 61 and want to get it done for him. But it is fighting me every step! Thank you everyone for the help! Everyone here is superb!!!!

          D79B1B96-08AE-4633-9738-CA8C852B2D0C.jpeg 74232CF5-ADF1-4F33-AF7C-FAD76CDC7365.jpeg 3911C017-AFAE-4F9F-B960-6A2650D63A76.jpeg 561C5350-DF02-4104-ADBB-6B8D7A9F8D96.jpeg 6B4A2839-A203-444F-A606-6C28658E4612.jpeg
           
        • Don Frelier

          Don Frelier FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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          My comments:
          1. The hole in the timing chain cover is TDC.
          2. I think moving the plug wires would be too far, you would need to rotate the distributor 45 deg to get where it is timed now.
          3. So you are left with pulling the distributor and lifting the intermediate shaft below and rotating a bit, reinsert. (NOTE Rotor position before starting this!)
          4. Lastly, if you are running a cam with longer duration than stock, you will likely find the engine prefers more initial advance, which consequently give too much total advance. That means you likely need to shorten the mechanical advance slots.
          Hope this helps.
           
        • Father Son 55

          Father Son 55 Member

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          Thank you for the reply! I think you are correct on moving the shaft. I think it needs moved so I can get the timing set correctly! I have raced Chevrolet engines most of my life and do not have much experience with Dodge or Chrysler engines or vehicles! Do I use a magnet to lift the shaft and rotate it? Or long needle nose pliers? Is this difficult or any possibility of it falling into the oil pan? I am not sure if it has a special cam shaft? We bought the car as is. It does not sound like it does at an idle? Unfortunately this poor car has been let’s say not repaired correctly at all!! Everything has been a battle because of horrible repairs, missing bolts, nuts and washers. I have already spent hours and (lots) of money fixing mistakes they made! It will be worth it when I see my sons face the first time he drives her!! This car came from Arkansas. So very little rust on the floor pan and none on the frame rails. Only concern is the quarter panels! I can’t find patch panels! And that’s all it needs. Thanks again!!!
           
        • Don Frelier

          Don Frelier FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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          This video explains it pretty well, note though that #1 can really be anywhere you decide.
          He shows it on a 440 and yes he has the intake off which really makes it easy.
          But it can be done without removing the intake. You may need an oil pump priming tool to turn the oil pump slightly, which is a long hex shaped piece of stock.
          I've seen paint mixers at home depot with the correct shaft you might be able to buy one of those and cut the end off.
          I've used a hook to pull it out, but mine were really clean. Take your time and it can be done, I wouldn't say its risky.
          https://binged.it/2rg6JNX
           
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          • Father Son 55

            Father Son 55 Member

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            Thank you so much for the help!!!
             
          • miller

            miller Well-Known Member

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            There is simply a 'tang', at the bottom of the distributor shaft, that fits into a slot in the intermediate shaft. Intermediate shaft drives both the distributor, and the oil pump.
            If you bring #1 piston up top, and looking at the timing marks at the dampner, then pull the distributor. The 'driving' gears on the shaft/cam are slanted. Easy enough to use a large flat head screwdriver, and turn the slot in the shaft. It will climb up the gears, and fall into the next one. Turn it to where you want it.
            Your after, considering the parts and pieces in the way, room to turn the distributor, to time it. Also the direction the distributor's rotor is pointing. Rotor will point towards #1 plug wire, on the distributor cap. That's even if you have to re-locate each plug wire on the cap.
             
          • Father Son 55

            Father Son 55 Member

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            Thank you for the information!!
             
          • BSB67

            BSB67 Well-Known Member

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            This. You don't need to take it out for what you're doing. Just a big screwdriver.

            I've never had to turn the oil pump to get the drive to go down.

            Also, the wires might be in the wrong position.
             
          • Father Son 55

            Father Son 55 Member

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            I will try this for sure! As far as the plug wires I have read that number does not matter for the location and just do the firing order from where you need it to start from. It runs okay but the distributor needs to turn more to set it, but it hits the head now before I get the correct timing. So if I do this gear correction I should have enough room to turn it more as needed. Thanks again!!
             
          • BSB67

            BSB67 Well-Known Member

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            Right. The starting position for the firing order does matter, because it will dictate the location of the vacuum unit as well. If it wasn't for that you would be correct. The cap only goes on one way. Where you put #1 wire on the cap does matter if you want the vacuum canister in the right location.
             
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            • Father Son 55

              Father Son 55 Member

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              Thank you!
              New question? We bought new front brake hoses and wheel cylinders. When I put the hoses on them it does not appear they seal correctly? Have you ever seen this issue?
               
            • Ironbuilt

              Ironbuilt FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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              Where did you source the cylinders and hoses? It could just be that they are Chinese "junk". Get a quality flaring tool and check the flare ends on each line. Also check the cylinders for imperfections at the connections.
               
            • Father Son 55

              Father Son 55 Member

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              My issue is not the steel brake line end for the hoses. It is where the hose screws into the wheel cylinder end for the front brakes. They just don’t seem to seat correctly. And yes they are both knock offs from Rock Auto! Can I get factory ones? Thank you for any advice!
               
            • Ironbuilt

              Ironbuilt FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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              Go to Napa. They sell quality cylinders and hoses.
               
            • Father Son 55

              Father Son 55 Member

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              Thank you!!
               
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