Understeer or Something

[matthon]

62 Dart, 383 4 speed.
Everything is new, 1,800 miles on it.
Espo springs, QA1 UCA, LCA, Strut Rods.
Manual disc/drum.
Stock power steering.
Front 215/70R15
Rear 275/60R15

Aligned it myself, as I've done before on other cars, with strings and things.

Aligned my a-body same way, manual steering, been 6 years, bought new tires in 2020, goes straight down the road, corners beautifully, tires wear evenly.*

*Had my a-body "professionally" aligned before our 3,500 mile road trip in June, because it was the smart thing to do, now the front tires are burned up on the inside.

There is no one around here competent enough to align old cars.

Dart used to have 215/70R15 on all 4 corners.

Car would not immediately steer, there was a noticeable lag, although slight, it could be alarming, especially to another driver.

Putting 275/60R15 on the rear didn't change anything in either direction.

I just checked the toe, multiple times as it's easy to do, and it was 1/8th wider in the front.
Adjusted to 1/16th shorter in front.

Now, in a corner, it will follow it perfectly.
Road turns more, turns less, car follows.

Go to turn quickly from straight, or back to straight, slight hesitation.

This is not a racecar and it's not driven that way.

Is this just Mopar power steering?

My 64 Fury wagon has power steering, same suspension, it floats along with play in the wheel, but I don't feel any hesitation.
Although it's a wagon with 14" wheels if that matters.

Also, both the Dart and the Fury came to me as original cars with the steering wheels off center at straight, still that way now, no accidents.

I fully admit I'm an idiot, and I'm looking for direction.

 

[ckessel]

I'm thinking the steering coupler may need a rebuild, unless you already did that. From there see if you can adjust the slack in the box. But the box may be just worn out where the shafts teeth mesh together. From there, replace with a rebuilt unit from one of the known, true, rebuilders. Or a new unit from Lares or Borgeson/BAC. Rebuilt unit would be better than your old one but not really anything can be done about the wear on the shafts teeth.

 

[Kern Dog]

Any shop that aligns a rear wheel drive street car with toe OUT is an idiot. You always toe it IN slightly to counter-act the drag of the tires so you'd be near zero toe when going down the road.
Tire wear on the inside edges is more associated with toe OUT than it is with negative camber.

 

[Lefty71]

 

[matthon]

62 Dart, everything is new.
I know people say that and it's not entirely true, but not an understatement, every single thing.

I rebuilt the column, bought a rebuilt stock box from Norm's (only does Mopar).
Proforged ball joints, steering joints, adjusters, camber bolts.

Toe out on my 62 Dart was me, as stated above, I had it at 1/8th wider in the front.
Adjusted to 1/16th shorter in front

My a-body, the place that aligned it gave it negative camber.
It's my fault for bringing it to a professional when it was fine for 6 years.

 

[matthon]

see if you can adjust the slack in the box

Not sure how to do that.

Iirc, I either read the section in the fsm and didn't understand it at all, or it wasn't clear.

Maybe it's not even covered in the fsm, it's not handy and I'm not waking up the dogs and everyone else right now, lol.

Way back when put together, the steering was pulling to the right initially, going down the road, and if up in the air it would automatically steer to the right.

Loosening the 2 bolts on small upper housing and tapping it one way or another solved that.
It may have also burped out some air, although I did fill the system correctly.

Based on a suggestion at the time, I also pulled off the return line nipple, made sure it was clear, checked the o-rings, even tried another one.

 

[khryslerkid]

The biggest thing I'm seeing here is your toe. If you changed it from 1/8" out to 1/16" you have no toe in or out. You need to have 1/16" to 1/8" toe in. No toe will walk all over the road.

Check your steering play with the car running, standing outside the car and slightly rock your steering wheel while watching the tire/wheel. Without the car running there's too much play in the box to tell. Check these two things and report back. I'll try to explain how to adjust a power steering box if there's too much play while running.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Yup, you need Toe In...

 

[matthon]

If you changed it from 1/8" out to 1/16" you have no toe in or out. You need to have 1/16" to 1/8" toe in. No toe will walk all over the road.

I might not be stating it correctly.

Measuring distance between the center of the front tires (technically hooking the tape measure on the outer edge of the center tread) at the front of the tire and at the rear of the tire.

It was 1/8th wider in the front of the tire than the rear, therefore toe out.

I adjusted to 1/16th shorter in front of the tire than the rear, therefore toe in.

 

[matthon]

Check your steering play with the car running, standing outside the car and slightly rock your steering wheel while watching the tire/wheel.

Running, rocking steering wheel back and forth, there's roughly, or almost, a quarter turn of nothingness, wow.

 

[khryslerkid]

I might not be stating it correctly.

Measuring distance between the center of the front tires (technically hooking the tape measure on the outer edge of the center tread) at the front of the tire and at the rear of the tire.

It was 1/8th wider in the front of the tire than the rear, therefore toe out.

I adjusted to 1/16th shorter in front of the tire than the rear, therefore toe in.

Did you check the toe with tires on the floor, preferably after rolling the car back and forward again if you had it jacked up previously?

Running, rocking steering wheel back and forth, there's roughly, or almost, a quarter turn of nothingness, wow.

If you want to check the steering box play, you almost need to have someone rocking the steering wheel while you watch the pitman arm for movement. If there isn't any then the play could be a worn steering component like the idler arm, tie rod or center link.
If it is in the steering box, watch this video starting at the 4:00 mark for adjustment procedures.

 

[matthon]

Did you check it with tires on the floor, preferably after rolling the car back and forward again if you had it jacked up previously?

Yes. Did it that way a few times.

Read somewhere to do the same but also fully apply the brakes when coming forward to 'load' the front suspension, or something.
Adding that step made no difference.

If you want to check the steering box play, you almost need to have someone rocking the steering wheel while you watch the pitman arm for movement. If there isn't any then the play could be a worn steering component like the idler arm, tie rod or center link.

This makes sense, and I will do it.
However everything is new, and although I have no trust in new parts, with good reasons, I don't believe there's any play in the new steering parts.

I actually found and installed an nos idler arm as well.

If it is in the steering box, watch this video starting at the 4:00 mark for adjustment procedures.

This is great.
I actually believe/hope this is the culprit.

The following is me joking around, but also being serious.

I appreciate the procedure in the video, as it's not a hand holding exercise, it's real, and we should all know what he's talking about.

The reality is I hope I can 'feel' backlash, in order to 'establish' the backlash, then tighten until the backlash 'just disappears.'

One of my favorite parts, don't forget to make the adjustment 'properly.'

Did they teach that to techs back in the day?

They forgot, for 8 cylinder vehicles with giant headers, you'll need a helper to take you to the hospital for the 3rd degree burns you're going to get, lol.

Seriously, if anyone can explain how to feel backlash, it would be greatly appreciated because this is happening and there is a potential I'll screw it up.

At least I'm willing to attempt.

If anyone recalls, this car was my 1st attempt at welding and ended up replacing everything you can't see, starting with the firewall.

Oh boy, access isn't looking good.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

When adjusting the steering box.... Realize half of what you perceive as play with the engine off is actually the reaction springs deflecting... You can not judge free play with the engine off...

As KryslerKid mentioned you would need one person watching the pitman arm while another turns the wheel....

Personally I cheat, I work on a cold engine with the engine off... I loosen the lock nut, turn the adjustment in one sixth of a turn and lock it down.... (one wrench flat..) And go drive the car.... Realize, if you get the adjustment to tight it's far worse than to loose... Even slightly too tight the car won't want to go straight.....

First more useless info that will explain why..... The steering gear is what's called a crown gear.... When dead on center the clearance is slightly tighter than anywhere else in the travel... When you are turning a little slop doesn't hurt anything and being tight and binding causes problems.. So, tight on center, loose everywhere else....

If you get the gear mesh too tight now the box wants to snap over the tight area & you'll perceive that as having to herd the car down the road....

So, I tighten one flat, drive the car... Tighten one more flat drive the car... When you feel a slight snapping over back the adjustment off one flat.....

 

[khryslerkid]

Make sure your steering is straight. Look for the notch or keyed slot on the input shaft at the end of your steering shaft coupler. You want it pointing straight up. This will have the gear at its highest spot. One Wild explained this.

You can cheat a little by breaking the nut loose and back it off a couple of threads when the engine is off and cold. You might have to hold the adjustment screw so it doesn't turn out with the nut. (I have headers also) I bent myself a flat blade screwdriver to fit kinda sideways for the adjuster. Start the engine and turn the screw in until you feel resistance, or when it gets tight. Turn off the engine and tighten the nut while holding the adjustment screw. That should eliminate most of the play and you won't get it too tight.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Make sure your steering is straight. Look for the notch or keyed slot on the input shaft at the end of your steering shaft coupler. You want it pointing straight up. This will have the gear at its highest spot. One Wild explained this.

You can cheat a little by breaking the nut loose and back it off a couple of threads when the engine is off and cold. You might have to hold the adjustment screw so it doesn't turn out with the nut. (I have headers also) I bent myself a flat blade screwdriver to fit kinda sideways for the adjuster. Start the engine and turn the screw in until you feel resistance, or when it gets tight. Turn off the engine and tighten the nut while holding the adjustment screw. That should eliminate most of the play and you won't get it too tight.

Bold, I'd be concerned about getting it to tight.. If I used that method I think at the end I would back it off 1/2 turn and go back to my method of one flat at a time.... But then I prefer to be cautious...

 

[khryslerkid]

Bold, I'd be concerned about getting it to tight.. If I used that method I think at the end I would back it off 1/2 turn and go back to my method of one flat at a time.... But then I prefer to be cautious...

The FSM and in the video I posted, they want you to turn the adjuster another 3/8 to 1/2 turn after the play/slack is taken out.

 

[matthon]

This makes sense, and I will do it.
However everything is new, and although I have no trust in new parts, with good reasons, I don't believe there's any play in the new steering parts.

Hey idiot, ya your parts are all new but you're a big dummy 'cause the box to k-frame bolts were loose.
You know, that k.i.s.s. principal you're always blabbing about.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Hey idiot, ya your parts are all new but you're a big dummy 'cause the box to k-frame bolts were loose.
You know, that k.i.s.s. principal you're always blabbing about.

Not the first time I've heard that.... The bolts are in an awkward spot...

 

[OneWheelPeel]

Next you will do something stupid like chase a mysterious noise all over your engine bay when it’s missing bolts on the crank pulley. I would never do something like that!

 

[icetech]

Hey idiot, ya your parts are all new but you're a big dummy 'cause the box to k-frame bolts were loose.
You know, that k.i.s.s. principal you're always blabbing about.

Matthon, check the holes in the box that mount it to the k-frame.. later boxes used bigger bolts and on a older k-frame the whole box will rotate when you turn the wheel (a little) and come loose... guess how i found out

Bought 3 of these and cut them down (well.. side of the bench grinder) and they worked perfect..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/370935106918