What to do with this 440? / ID internals

[Wietse]

Hey guys,

The other day i had removed the oil pan for the first time since i own the car.
I had some rattling noise and was unable to locate it initially, so i had dropped the oil and thought it's wise to have a look in the pan to see if there is something wrong inside.
The rattling noise source was found later on, cracked header tube on cylinder #3.
Anyway, in the pan nothing unusual found other then some marks where the oil pickup had been hitting the pan due to a dent which i straightened up before putting it back.
Also cleaned the pan out from quite some accumulated sludge.
When removing i bend the windage tray so i did not put it back, bad thing?

I only know the engine supposed to be rebuild by a PO but when and what was done i don't know.
My main question is, looking at the bottom of the pistons if someone could identify them by something? (brand/type?)
Looks like there has been some machining done on the bottom for reasons unknown, guess a clearance issue?
Think the crank and rods are oem components, but pistons seem aftermarket right?
Also the converter is something i have no idea about, same for the rocker arms.
By a rough measurement it seems the rocker arms are 1.6 ratio.
I did not find any part numbers on converter and rocker arms so i have nothing to revert to.

Maybe some of you guys run same components which you could tell me something about?

The thing with the engine is, it runs well and has power, has good compression on all cylinders (200 psi), does not use much oil so there is no need for a full rebuild.
It has 10Hg vacuum at best @ 900 rpm, idle has always been with a stumble on any timing/carb setting.
The camshaft, of which i have no specs from, seems to be quite setup for racing.
I don't see an immediate reason for replacing it, but do wonder what would happen if i replace the assuming 1.6 ratio rocker arms for 1.5 ratio?
Does this tame the engine a bit as it reduces valve lift? basically would that improve vacuum and idle quality?
I also understand when replacing the camshaft for one with a different profile i would need to replace the converter with one that meets the camshaft profile right?
I believe converter stall speed should be a little higher then the lowest reading of the camshaft rpm band.
What size converter is used on the 440 HP engines? 11"?
I am going to pull the engine out anyway because i want to clean up the engine bay and get a paint job done in there.
And i will need new headers, change the engine mounts, do some repairs on the threaded holes for the exhaust header and give the engine a clean and new coat of Hemi orange.
If the engine is out it is the obvious right time to change camshaft and converter if i have to.
My idea was i could check the camshaft specs with a crank degree wheel and a clock gauge right? (Check degree's at 0.050" lift right?)
I want a street/strip type engine, i don't race it on the track.
I am fed up of the poor vacuum and rough idle.
The car is a '69 Coronet R/T with auto tranny. 4.10 ratio rear axle with limited slip diff (plan to change to 3.23 gears), Power brakes, power steering.

I know it's a far shot but any info i could get would help me out.
Your help would be highly appreciated!

 

[Jerry Hall]

From some of the things you mentioned, I really cannot give any real advice. 200 psi compression on all cylinders sounds like a compression ratio of 11:1 or more. Does this thing run on pump gas without detonation? 1.6 rockers are just adding lift to what you described as a already radical cam. It doesn't sound like a street/strip build to me. Power brakes would be marginal at a vacuum of 10. 75% of my cars are mostly stock Chrysler builds and they have to be detuned to run on 93 octane, therefore as I don't use ethanol fuel, I resort to the 100 octane low lead at the airport mixed with 90 octane ethanol free to tune to factory specifications.
If you are going to pull the engine my recommendation would be to find out what you have with it out and make the necessary changes to make it what you want. There is plenty of advice around here for that although opinions will vary.

 

[Lefty71]

The "machining" you see on the bottom of the pistons is just a way to shave off some material to even them up weight wise, so they become a "matched set".

 

[Wietse]

Thx for your input guys,

I am running on a "sold as" 98 octane fuel...real value is probably lower.
It is sensitive for detonation when playing with timing.

It doesn't sound like a street/strip build to me.

It isn't but that is what i want it to become, kind of, hoping that by changing the 1.6 ratio rocker to 1.5 would take away the top of the roughness.
For sure beats changing cam, bearings, followers etc.

The "machining" you see on the bottom of the pistons is just a way to shave off some material to even them up weight wise, so they become a "matched set".

So probably they did a good job on the engine, nice to know.
I was thinking maybe it is to add clearance on the counter weight if the crank..

 

[Jerry Hall]

I am running on a "sold as" 98 octane fuel...real value is probably lower.
It is sensitive for detonation when playing with timing

Glad there is some decent gas left somewhere in the world. Sounds like it may want some more timing, being sensitive to timing changes. Rocker change may help, but I know you only want to pull it out once. Do as much as you can before removing so you have a good plan in place.

 

[Don Frelier]

Sounds like you have a race motor with very high compression. So if you put a mild camshaft in it you are likely to have real predestination problems. You need to pull a head and get an idea of the chamber volume and calculate your compression ratio. I don't think changing the rocker ratio is going to get you what you are looking for.

 

[Wietse]

Many thanks guys for explaining.

Yes, pulling the engine plan is to do it once, and for that i want to prepare.
Would the compression ratio be that high??
I did the compression test as from what i found, carb at WOT, engine at operating temp and crank.
I maybe did 7 or 8 cranks when doing this i believe, maybe it is showing too high then?
Or doesn't really matter 5 or 10 cranks?
The heads seem stock, not sure how to identify but i will have a look for numbers or so.
With a stock head i can assume the pistons will be the reason for the high compression, which would give the need to replace/machine them to get the compression lowered.
If it would burn oil and run poor it would be a easy choice and get a full rebuild done, but i am afraid of throwing a lot of money in a engine that doesn't need all that.

I will have a look for a cheap borescope and look in the chambers to see how that looks like.

 

[dvw]

The rockets went tame a thing. If you're going to take it apart get some help. If the cam will be swapped you need to check if the current part is hydraulic or solid. The new cam will.need to be degreed and properly broken in. Personally I'd pull the heads. That way you can measure the true compression ratio. If its above 9.5-1 with iron heads it's not going to be pump gas friendly. Now you have even a bigger can of worms. Get with someone who knows carbs and tune on what you have. Heck my racecar idles at 1000 with a [email protected]" /.800" lift cam just fine.
Doug

 

[khryslerkid]

You can look here on your heads for the casting number. They go by the last three numbers. This one is a 452

Doesn't look like too many miles on your engine. Very visible cross hatch in the cylinder bores.

For the engine builders...

Has this crank been extensively worked, balanced? This looks like welding to add weight? Not familiar with this technique in this area.

 

[Wietse]

Get with someone who knows carbs and tune on what you have

Guess you are right here, i don't want to go to the extreme and pull an engine apart if it is still good.
Guess i should ramp up the curb idle to a 1000 rpm as wel, get some more vacuum and probably less stumble.

Has this crank been extensively worked, balanced? This looks like welding to add weight? Not familiar with this technique in this area.

Thats no welding there, it is just those grooves from machining and the light makes it look odd but it is as normal.
The cross hatch is very visible indeed, therefore i think it would be a waste of money pulling it apart, but was just looking for some easy way of taming the cam a bit with what i have.
Next time i will pull the valve cover i will check it out what number is there.
What numbers could be there for an early '69 440, casting date of the engine is '68 and guessing the heads are the original ones.

 

[1968rt]

Those pistons are Speed Pro (TRW) forged. Most likely the 2355 or the 2266. If the skirt has 2 small reinforcement bars then it would be the 2295. Even with the 2295 dome and those heads you should still be under 11:1 comp. 2355 will give you about 9.5 and the 2266 about 8.8. Could be the heads or block have been milled. Zero deck with the 2355 would put you in detonation range with an iron head.

 

[Wietse]

I think making 8 compression strokes would have given me a too high reading.
Because it runs on pump gas all day long without detonation so i must have did something wrong taking those compression readings....
Looking on the web it seems the 2355's have a recess for valves, where the 2266 is a flat top right?

 

[miller]

I think making 8 compression strokes would have given me a too high reading.

Normally, doing a compression test, however you do it, you want the carb wide open.
I was always told, three hits on each cylinder.

 

[Wietse]

I had the carb at WOT and the engine was warm.
So i made have done too much hits, not sure if more hits increase pressure though?

 

[1968rt]

The 2355 will sit about .020 in the hole of an unmilled block. The 2266 will sit about .090 in the hole....big difference.

 

[Don Frelier]

I don't think the reading increases much after 3 compression strokes.
One the engine spins at the starter speed, your reading from each stroke should be the same.

 

[Wietse]

The check valve on the compression tester will show the highest reading that occurred, anything lower will not have any affect.
These were the readings i got.

#1: 200 #2: 200
#3: 195 #4: 205
#5: 200 #6: 198
#7: 197 #8: 203

I did not see any reinforcement bars on the skirts so they are for sure not the 2295's.
See if i can get my hands on a borescope and do a little peek-a-boo in there.