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Why am I taking out the K - member?

CoronetDarter

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I'm at a decision point on how to proceed with the the front end part of my '69 Coronet resto project and need advice from the FBBO family. It's a 440 with a TF tranny and 3.23 SG rear end. The front suspension is being freshened up with a rebuild kit from PST along with tubular A arms, LCA rebuild kit including stiffening plates and .96 torsion bars. I've also ordered a 11.75' disc brake kit from Dr. Diff. The T-bars are out and so now I'm getting ready to drop the front suspension. I originally planned on dropping the K member with the suspension attached, disassemble and then send the K member and LCA arms to be sandblasted and powder coated. But now I'm having second thoughts on the K member. I'm basically concerned about getting it bolted back to the frame rails. The car is supported on its frame rails by 4 floor jacks. Maybe I'm over thinking, but is it possible that the front frame rails could shift slightly once the K member bolts are out? As I was removing the p/s box I noticed it was almost touching the inner frame rail, which seems really tight, so if the K member was to go in slightly off from where it is now it could be trouble.

This is not going to be a show car, just the opposite it will be a driver so if there's a chance the front end could tweak a little with the K member out I would just sand it down as best I could to bare metal and paint it in the car. As always thanks to everyone for their insight.
 
X2 nothing will move on you.

I assume you planned on dropping the engine and transmission at the same time....if the K frame comes out....those come out with it.
 
If the car has ever been wrecked, then you might have a problem with getting the K frame back in but it will go back in the same way it came out. I did have one car where this was an issue but things only moved about 3/16ths" when the K was dropped out which made it more difficult to get the K back in because the holes were not exactly aligned anymore but was able to pull the rails together enough using a chain binder. Also, the bolts holding the K in place are shouldered and helps align the K member. Also, there is a tolerance with these cars and it wasn't a real tight one like it is today so taking a K frame from another car from a different year might present a problem too.
 
Word to the wise about powdercoating a k-member...

K-members are full of nooks and crannies that hold and trap debris (sand, gravel, dirt, critters, etc.) grease and oil. The curing process of powder paint requires the k-frame be subjected to heat of around 400°F for around 15-20 minutes. At this temp, the grease and oil liquefy and run out of the nooks and crannies, thus ruining your new powder coat finish. I recommend thoroughly cleaning the pieces AFTER sandblasting with acetone, laquer thinner, etc. to remove all the grease and oil prior to powder coating.

Good luck with your project!
 
X2 nothing will move on you.

I assume you planned on dropping the engine and transmission at the same time....if the K frame comes out....those come out with it.
I didn't mention that the drive train is already out.

- - - Updated - - -

If the car has ever been wrecked, then you might have a problem with getting the K frame back in but it will go back in the same way it came out. I did have one car where this was an issue but things only moved about 3/16ths" when the K was dropped out which made it more difficult to get the K back in because the holes were not exactly aligned anymore but was able to pull the rails together enough using a chain binder. Also, the bolts holding the K in place are shouldered and helps align the K member. Also, there is a tolerance with these cars and it wasn't a real tight one like it is today so taking a K frame from another car from a different year might present a problem too.

Thanks Cranky. To your point about a wreck, my Coronet was the one that lost the lug nuts and LH wheel at 30 mph. The drum and spindle took the majority of the hit but I noticed some road rash on the underside of the K as well.

This poses another question - how can you tell if the K member is bent slightly? Are there measuring points as guidance?

- - - Updated - - -

Word to the wise about powdercoating a k-member...

K-members are full of nooks and crannies that hold and trap debris (sand, gravel, dirt, critters, etc.) grease and oil. The curing process of powder paint requires the k-frame be subjected to heat of around 400°F for around 15-20 minutes. At this temp, the grease and oil liquefy and run out of the nooks and crannies, thus ruining your new powder coat finish. I recommend thoroughly cleaning the pieces AFTER sandblasting with acetone, laquer thinner, etc. to remove all the grease and oil prior to powder coating.

Good luck with your project!

Thanks Ron, that's a great point. I will bring the piece home and clean it before the powder coating.
 
I don't want to insult your intelligence, but here is a few things I did to make removing the 40 plus years of the 4 bolts from the member.

Soak it down with WD40 or rust blaster a few days prior. Keep reapplying it so often to give it time to do its magic. Taking them out dry could break the nut welded in the frame to break loose inside it. Then you will have a whole new set of problems.

Power wash the frame rail to get all the years of dirt out also before you do that. It will ensure that the spray is getting to the bolts and not just getting soaked up in the dirt.

Suggest running a tap to clean up the threads before reassembly if you have one, and test each one to ensure they will go back in with ease and not cross thread or hang up.

Do the same thing to the any and all bolts that go into the frame. I broke one and spun the nut free taking the bumpers mounts off.
 
If it's bent, chances are that it'll be in stress bolted up and when you unbolt it, it will no long sit flush with the frame rails......unless the car is bent too. If you suspect the frame of the car might be tweaked, then your best bet would be to put it on a frame machine and get it checked. K frames can take a pretty good whack....sometimes they get bent and sometimes just get dented.
 
I don't want to insult your intelligence, but here is a few things I did to make removing the 40 plus years of the 4 bolts from the member.

Soak it down with WD40 or rust blaster a few days prior. Keep reapplying it so often to give it time to do its magic. Taking them out dry could break the nut welded in the frame to break loose inside it. Then you will have a whole new set of problems.

Power wash the frame rail to get all the years of dirt out also before you do that. It will ensure that the spray is getting to the bolts and not just getting soaked up in the dirt.

Suggest running a tap to clean up the threads before reassembly if you have one, and test each one to ensure they will go back in with ease and not cross thread or hang up.

Do the same thing to the any and all bolts that go into the frame. I broke one and spun the nut free taking the bumpers mounts off.

Insult my what?!?! lol. No worries here. All good stuff you mentioned. The engine compartment had been sandblasted already and then I used a rice cake and 80 grit to take the frame rails down to bare metal. I then painted them with POR-15. The top of the K was also sandblasted with the engine compartment, but it still needs a complete blasting. And I had sprayed penetrating oil on all the other suspension bolts and forgot about the K member bolts so that was a great reminder.

- - - Updated - - -

If it's bent, chances are that it'll be in stress bolted up and when you unbolt it, it will no long sit flush with the frame rails......unless the car is bent too. If you suspect the frame of the car might be tweaked, then your best bet would be to put it on a frame machine and get it checked. K frames can take a pretty good whack....sometimes they get bent and sometimes just get dented.

A few months ago Mike, who's helping me on the bodywork, put the car on a frame machine and it was in spec so I suspect it's just a little road rash on the K. Thanks again for your help.
 
FWIW, I think you SHOULD continue with your plan to drop the K member. It sounds like it is unlikely that there is frame damage, and even if there is, this is a good way to find out and fix it.

Beyond that, just working on the K-Member when it is out and separated from the car is SOOOO much easier. In my opinion, it is truly worth the time to take out the K-member because you will easily save that time as you work on cleaning up all the stuff attached to it.

Finally, I also suggest you put the engine back on the K-member while it is out (tranny too). Again, getting all this mess back in the car is much easier than trying to lift it over the radiator support swinging from a chain, and then leaning on your fenders scratching them up hooking up all the engine components. I am in the middle of restoring my Road Runner and I dropped the engine and trans on the K-Member and I will never again do it the other way!

Good luck whatever you decide...

Hawk
 
I did some work on a road runner that had been hit in the front. I had to use a porta power to get the bolts to line up. I did that work before painting and it lined up fine. I'd say it would have had to be hit pretty hard for things to not line up. You can check it while you disassemble it. Its pretty obvious if something is messed up.
Agree with what was said on powder coating the kframe. I've been using POR and it looks great. Won't fade because the sun never hits it.
 
don't forget to weld and stiffen up that k member while you have it out!
 
Might be a bit extreme, but I brought an RTV jack, the ones with the wheels and twin lifting points. I'm going to use that to lift and lower the k-frame when I drop it and reinstall it later rebuilt with the engine on it. Already worked a treat for dropping the rear end out!
 
FWIW, I think you SHOULD continue with your plan to drop the K member. It sounds like it is unlikely that there is frame damage, and even if there is, this is a good way to find out and fix it.

Beyond that, just working on the K-Member when it is out and separated from the car is SOOOO much easier. In my opinion, it is truly worth the time to take out the K-member because you will easily save that time as you work on cleaning up all the stuff attached to it.

Finally, I also suggest you put the engine back on the K-member while it is out (tranny too). Again, getting all this mess back in the car is much easier than trying to lift it over the radiator support swinging from a chain, and then leaning on your fenders scratching them up hooking up all the engine components. I am in the middle of restoring my Road Runner and I dropped the engine and trans on the K-Member and I will never again do it the other way!

Good luck whatever you decide...

Hawk

Dropping the car down no the K member is the way to go, the only consideration is acquiring the tools to do it. The car still needs to be painted so I have to get rollers for the front. I was looking at the US Cartool website for the brackets to bolt onto the front of the car and the engine/trans dolly.

- - - Updated - - -

I did some work on a road runner that had been hit in the front. I had to use a porta power to get the bolts to line up. I did that work before painting and it lined up fine. I'd say it would have had to be hit pretty hard for things to not line up. You can check it while you disassemble it. Its pretty obvious if something is messed up.
Agree with what was said on powder coating the kframe. I've been using POR and it looks great. Won't fade because the sun never hits it.
I've used POR on the entire back half of the car after sandblasting. It would work great on the K, never chips.
 
So, I got the front end with K member out this morning. Only took about an hour. Three of the 4 K bolts came right out; the LH side rear bolt which is right over the spindle that took the impact when the wheel feel off, took max effort. I had to use a breaker bar because the impact wrench wouldn't budge it. I'll be getting 4 new bolts.
IMG_1759.jpg

For all your first timers like me, read on: if the engine is out of the car when pulling the front end, and the rear end is still in, all the weight is now at the back of the car and that's not good. How do I know? Cause when the last K bolt dropped the front of the car rebounded up like one of those see-saws at the park and started rotating off the rear jacks. Scared the **** out of me - literally. After the car was secured I went in the house and dropped a deuce which lightened me up about 10 lbs.

Fortunately the rear wheels which were loose from the car but tucked into the rear wheel well, prevented the car from rotating off the rear floor jacks. Otherwise the car would have either tipped over on it's side or come crashing down on the rear frame rails. My son was at his friends house and my wife was on her 5 mile walk. So I'm leaning down on the radiator support keeping the car steady trying to come up with a plan. How's this for ironic timing - I'm standing there for about 5 minutes when up pulls the Fed Ex truck and the driver comes into my garage with my PST front end parts. He says 'Hi', I say 'Hi', he asks where would I like the box?, and I said to just leave it there on the garage floor. He says 'Bye', I said 'Bye', and off he goes and I never moved a muscle. I'm not making this up.

So I'm standing there for about 15 minutes until Maria walks up. She's a trooper and has helped me numerous times before on this resto when I needed a hand, so she held down the front end while I jacked up the rear as far as the floor jacks would extend and then dumped my son's old guitar amp, which weighs about 60 lbs, into the front of the interior along with the battery and another 40 - 50 lbs of parts.

Morale of the story - always keep in mind the principle of gravity when working on your cars.

IMG_1755.jpgIMG_1756.jpg

More better:

IMG_1757.jpgIMG_1758.jpg

And on a positive finish, I got my parts: tubular UCA's, 11/16" tie rod ends and solid adjuster, LCA rebuild kit, idler arm, strut rod bushings.

IMG_1762.jpg


Well, the front end is disassembled. It took about five hours but it wasn't very hard. The most time consuming part is getting those damn cotter pins out. It's kind of a shame because the PO had changed out all the ball joints and tie rods about 10 years ago, but only put about 2,000 miles on them so they look almost brand new. I can reuse the RH lower ball joint, the LH lower ball joint's rubber seal was shredded during the accident. The K frame and LCA's will be sandblasted before reassembly.
IMG_1767.jpg
 

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Nice work!

Looks like you have many of the same front end pieces that I have for my car. I welded on the same lower control arm braces and have the same parts from PST. You can check out my thread if you want where I installed some of that:
http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?65096-Hawk-Rod-The-Restoration/page4

Starts with post 78, and then goes on to page 5 if you are interested in checking it out...

Good Luck!

Hawk,

You started your resto a couple months before me so I've been following your thread all along. You've passed along some invaluable information along the way. It looks like you went with the poly bushings on the LCA, I stayed with rubber, except for the strut rods 'cause PST doesn't offer rubber on those. Like you I'm going to make some of my own templates for beefing up the K member. And I'll be going with a FF Stage II p/s box. Good luck on finishing up your resto.
 
Glad some of the posts were helpful. I too, will be checking out yours to see what I can learn! :blob1:
 
Word to the wise about powdercoating a k-member...

K-members are full of nooks and crannies that hold and trap debris (sand, gravel, dirt, critters, etc.) grease and oil. The curing process of powder paint requires the k-frame be subjected to heat of around 400°F for around 15-20 minutes. At this temp, the grease and oil liquefy and run out of the nooks and crannies, thus ruining your new powder coat finish. I recommend thoroughly cleaning the pieces AFTER sandblasting with acetone, laquer thinner, etc. to remove all the grease and oil prior to powder coating.

Good luck with your project!


With all due respect, if you choose the right powder coater you won't have to worry about ANY of that and the k-member will be in qualified, experienced hands. Check real references, talk with their customers and ask to see examples of the work before you make a commitment. The heavy influx of inexperienced people to the industry over the last decade (mostly thanks to Eastwood's "Own your own business for $100!" marketing ploy) has sadly affected the reputation, quality and longevity of powder coating in general.

If it's done right, the part will be thoroughly cleaned and degreased, media blasted, cleaned again, and outgassed in the oven for several hours before any chemical pretreatment / rust preventer and the powder is applied. Outgassing is an absolutely crucial step -- especially when working with used and greasy automotive parts -- that most coaters avoid for some unknown reason; what it does is help to bring all the trapped air and impurities in the metal to the surface where they can be blasted away ... not left there to cure and leech through the powder!

Acetone and lacquer thinner are probably fine when working with paint. When working with heat and powder, they can be your worst decision ever and can ultimately cause delamination (i.e., the powder comes off in sheets) and streaky, uneven results, especially when working with candy colors.

Ron, you are correct that most powders cure at 400 degrees for about 15 minutes. What a lot of people (and "professional" newby coaters) don't realize is that you don't start the timer when the oven gets to 400 ... the cure time begins when the k-frame gets to 400 degrees. If the job is properly done, the part will actually be in the oven for a lot longer than just a few minutes.

... Thanks Ron, that's a great point. I will bring the piece home and clean it before the powder coating.

As I was saying up there, you should not be responsible for that if you're paying to have the work done in the first place. All prep should be included and you should get exactly what you pay for.

... Agree with what was said on powder coating the kframe. I've been using POR and it looks great. Won't fade because the sun never hits it.

Although there are many to choose from, most powders won't fade when the sun hits them either. Certain colors will, however, unless you finish them with a topcoat of clear. Silvers, golds and even some reds are not UV-stable on their own and require a clear; otherwise they'll fade and/or oxidize over time and you'll have to polish them just like you would real metal (because there's real metal in the powder).

I've been at this job for nearly 15 years and am sad to say that the bad information floating around on the internet is almost as detrimental to the entire industry as the ones who open up their own shop and practice on YOUR parts. I'm always around to help out if any of you have questions about the process itself or need a quote. Unlike those other guys you might have down the street (how long have they been in business??? and how many happy customers do they have?), I'll even give ya a FBBO discount. :D

Good luck with the project! Keep us posted on how it turns out.
 
So, I got the front end with K member out this morning. Only took about an hour. Three of the 4 K bolts came right out; the LH side rear bolt which is right over the spindle that took the impact when the wheel feel off, took max effort. I had to use a breaker bar because the impact wrench wouldn't budge it. I'll be getting 4 new bolts.
View attachment 208361

For all your first timers like me, read on: if the engine is out of the car when pulling the front end, and the rear end is still in, all the weight is now at the back of the car and that's not good. How do I know? Cause when the last K bolt dropped the front of the car rebounded up like one of those see-saws at the park and started rotating off the rear jacks. Scared the **** out of me - literally. After the car was secured I went in the house and dropped a deuce which lightened me up about 10 lbs.

Fortunately the rear wheels which were loose from the car but tucked into the rear wheel well, prevented the car from rotating off the rear floor jacks. Otherwise the car would have either tipped over on it's side or come crashing down on the rear frame rails. My son was at his friends house and my wife was on her 5 mile walk. So I'm leaning down on the radiator support keeping the car steady trying to come up with a plan. How's this for ironic timing - I'm standing there for about 5 minutes when up pulls the Fed Ex truck and the driver comes into my garage with my PST front end parts. He says 'Hi', I say 'Hi', he asks where would I like the box?, and I said to just leave it there on the garage floor. He says 'Bye', I said 'Bye', and off he goes and I never moved a muscle. I'm not making this up.

So I'm standing there for about 15 minutes until Maria walks up. She's a trooper and has helped me numerous times before on this resto when I needed a hand, so she held down the front end while I jacked up the rear as far as the floor jacks would extend and then dumped my son's old guitar amp, which weighs about 60 lbs, into the front of the interior along with the battery and another 40 - 50 lbs of parts.

Morale of the story - always keep in mind the principle of gravity when working on your cars.

View attachment 208363View attachment 208364

More better:

View attachment 208365View attachment 208366

And on a positive finish, I got my parts: tubular UCA's, 11/16" tie rod ends and solid adjuster, LCA rebuild kit, idler arm, strut rod bushings.

View attachment 208367


Well, the front end is disassembled. It took about five hours but it wasn't very hard. The most time consuming part is getting those damn cotter pins out. It's kind of a shame because the PO had changed out all the ball joints and tie rods about 10 years ago, but only put about 2,000 miles on them so they look almost brand new. I can reuse the RH lower ball joint, the LH lower ball joint's rubber seal was shredded during the accident. The K frame and LCA's will be sandblasted before reassembly.
View attachment 208424
I always put a pair of larger jack stands under the rearward frame rails by the rear bumper while I have jack stands under the differential before I pulled the motor, and trans. I figured out that if I didn't want to eat the front of my car.
 
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