318 Woes

[79B100]

1979 B100 with 318 LA

I bought it non-running, pulled the 318 and had it shopped: hot tanked, bored to 60 over, honed. Only the block and crank were good.

Installed KB hyper pistons to size, along with new rings, obviously.

Hughes Whiplash cam, timing chain, lifters.

Custom Manton pushrods.

Edelbrock RPM heads for 318 LA.

Hughes rocker arms for Edelbrock RPM.

Edelbrock 2176 intake manifold.

Edelbrock 4 barrel carb.

Everything else is new too: mechanical fuel pump, oil pump, oil pan, pulleys, alternator, etc.

Rebuilt 727.

Rewired the van with a Painless universal harness. The Powermaster starter is triggered by a push button. Ford style starter relay. HEI distributor is wired to a 4-pin relay. New Optima red top battery, fully charged.

THE 318 WILL NOT START.

I’ve been troubleshooting for a month.

The starter cranks. Everything spins. No weird noises. Voltage is good at distributor and starter. I swapped in a different distributor, in case ignition module was bad.

Timing is dead on. TDC of compression stroke at #1 cylinder. NOT 180 out. Changing to 180 causes backfire. I’ve reset many times. Twisting during crank does nothing.

Engine does nothing during crank. The crank sound is constant. No pops, coughs, nothing.

Spark is strong, white, and consistent at every wire and plug. Have tested with multiple methods.

The van is fully grounded, with new engine straps and component grounds. All connected to bare metal.

The new fuel tank has 10 gallons of non-ethanol. No fuel leaks. The pump is delivering fuel through the Wix filter to the carb.

The carb is squirting fuel. The throttle linkage is a bit crude for now, but everything is connected and functioning.

I have not changed the carb’s adjustment screws from factory setting.

The carb’s electric choke is receiving good voltage and is grounded.

I set valve lash to spec: .015. Valve trains appear to be functioning normally. Oil pump is primed, and top end is receiving oil. No oil leaks.

New oem exhaust manifolds are free and clear.

Starter fluid in the throttle body has no effect.

Even bank cylinders show cold compression at 110. Odd cylinders show 100. Engine has never run. Rings have not seated. I expect compression to increase after break in.

What is typical compression for newly built 318 vs broken in 318? I know these are considered low compression engines when stock.

I think engine should start at current compression. Yes? No?

Vacuum is ok at intake manifold. I have plugged the vacuum port on the manifold and am running the brake booster to the proper inlet on the carb. I have a pcv valve connected to the carb, along with the distributor’s advance to the non-emissions port.

After cranking, spark plugs smell like gas but aren’t wet. Very slightly wetafter prolonged cranking. I wonder if the fuel somehow isn’t reaching them. Could cam timing or valve dysfunction be preventing fuel delivery? Intake runners aren’t blocked, nor is carb.

Crank is maxing around 150rpm. This seems low to me. Depending on whom I ask, it is or it isn’t. Not sure how to boost this. Seems like brand new high torque starter with optimal current to rebuilt 727 should suffice. Engine rotates fine by hand. ???

I had a similar thread 3 weeks ago in the ignition forum, but have since added the starter solenoid and HEI relay. I don’t think the issue is electrical. ?

Though not pictured, I obviously have ignition wires connected in proper order at crank.

I’m running out of ideas. Thanks.

 

[padam]

I’ll take a stab. With that low compression I suspect cam timing.
Was it degreed?

 

[69Bee]

Hughes Whiplash cam, timing chain, lifters.

I set valve lash to spec: .015

You don't say which Whiplash cam (I assume there is more than one flavor), but the one I brought up for a 318 says that it is a hydraulic cam. Hydraulic cams are installed with a zero-lash and additional turns for a pre-load. You state that you set the valves with a 0.015" lash??? First thing that pops out to me.

 

[79B100]

I just set it dot to dot. I thought these whiplash cams were supposed to actually be pretty conservative. I may have made a big mistake there. Ugh.

 

[rumblefish360]

I just set it dot to dot. I thought these whiplash cams were supposed to actually be pretty conservative. I may have made a big mistake there. Ugh.

I don’t think so.

 

[tonysrt]

Rings probably haven't seated since new rebuild. I know you said carb is pumping, have you tried adding gas thru carb. Maybe put a jumper to plus side of coil to make sure your getting juice in the run and start position of key. If it fires and runs start troubleshooting ignition switch. Don't run long or you'll wipe out coil.

 

[rumblefish360]

1979 B100 with 318 LA

I bought it non-running, pulled the 318 and had it shopped: hot tanked, bored to 60 over, honed. Only the block and crank were good.

Installed KB hyper pistons to size, along with new rings, obviously.

Nice, now you’re at 3.27.79 cubic inches. Which KB pistons did you use and how far down in the cylinder are they? How many cc’s are the heads and the gasket size bore and thicknesses?

Hughes Whiplash cam, timing chain, lifters.

Custom Manton pushrods.

Edelbrock RPM heads for 318 LA.

Hughes rocker arms for Edelbrock RPM.

Edelbrock 2176 intake manifold.

Edelbrock 4 barrel carb.

Everything else is new too: mechanical fuel pump, oil pump, oil pan, pulleys, alternator, etc.

Rebuilt 727.

Sounds like a great start. Is this your first rebuild?

Rewired the van with a Painless universal harness. The Powermaster starter is triggered by a push button. Ford style starter relay. HEI distributor is wired to a 4-pin relay. New Optima red top battery, fully charged.

THE 318 WILL NOT START.

I’ve been troubleshooting for a month.

The starter cranks. Everything spins. No weird noises. Voltage is good at distributor and starter. I swapped in a different distributor, in case ignition module was bad.

Timing is dead on. TDC of compression stroke at #1 cylinder. NOT 180 out. Changing to 180 causes backfire. I’ve reset many times. Twisting during crank does nothing.

Just to be clear, when you set the timing gears dot to dot, then set in the distributor, you had the rotor pointing at the number one cylinder, then moved it 180*’s out so it fires on the #1 cylinders compression stroke?

This would be a correct to do it.

Engine does nothing during crank. The crank sound is constant. No pops, coughs, nothing.

Spark is strong, white, and consistent at every wire and plug. Have tested with multiple methods.

The van is fully grounded, with new engine straps and component grounds. All connected to bare metal.

The new fuel tank has 10 gallons of non-ethanol. No fuel leaks. The pump is delivering fuel through the Wix filter to the carb.

The carb is squirting fuel. The throttle linkage is a bit crude for now, but everything is connected and functioning.

I have not changed the carb’s adjustment screws from factory setting.

The carb’s electric choke is receiving good voltage and is grounded.

I set valve lash to spec: .015. Valve trains appear to be functioning normally. Oil pump is primed, and top end is receiving oil. No oil leaks.

New oem exhaust manifolds are free and clear.

Starter fluid in the throttle body has no effect.

Even bank cylinders show cold compression at 110. Odd cylinders show 100. Engine has never run. Rings have not seated. I expect compression to increase after break in.

What is typical compression for newly built 318 vs broken in 318? I know these are considered low compression engines when stock.

I think engine should start at current compression. Yes? No?

Depends if you did what I asked above on setting up the timing.
You could be 180* out.

Vacuum is ok at intake manifold. I have plugged the vacuum port on the manifold and am running the brake booster to the proper inlet on the carb. I have a pcv valve connected to the carb, along with the distributor’s advance to the non-emissions port.

After cranking, spark plugs smell like gas but aren’t wet. Very slightly wetafter prolonged cranking. I wonder if the fuel somehow isn’t reaching them. Could cam timing or valve dysfunction be preventing fuel delivery? Intake runners aren’t blocked, nor is carb.

Crank is maxing around 150rpm. This seems low to me. Depending on whom I ask, it is or it isn’t. Not sure how to boost this. Seems like brand new high torque starter with optimal current to rebuilt 727 should suffice. Engine rotates fine by hand. ???

I had a similar thread 3 weeks ago in the ignition forum, but have since added the starter solenoid and HEI relay. I don’t think the issue is electrical. ?

Though not pictured, I obviously have ignition wires connected in proper order at crank.

I’m running out of ideas. Thanks.

 

[79B100]

69Bee, you are right. I read the install sheet and somehow thought it said .015. I have no idea where I got that number. I will adjust to proper preload based on my block/head combo and hope for the best. Thanks!

 

[79B100]

Yes, first rebuild. Doing the full vehicle. Just hit the 2-year mark.

Adding gas to throttle body doesn’t work. Spark is strong. Starting current is strong.

Timing is on compression stroke, definitely not 180 out.

Pistons are KB 167.060 Hypereutectic Flat Tops, 3.970”. Scat 2-ICR6123-2124 forged I-beam connecting rods. Sealed Power 82130CP rod bearings. UEM 3910AM8.060 rings. Heads are 171cc / 77cc. Fel Pro 8553PT head gaskets are 4.180 in bore.

 

[guy gadbois]

I know its no help, but that thing should run and run well! Sorry...

 

[rumblefish360]

Yes, first rebuild. Doing the full vehicle. Just hit the 2-year mark.

Adding gas to throttle body doesn’t work. Spark is strong. Starting current is strong.

Timing is on compression stroke, definitely not 180 out.

Pistons are KB 167.060 Hypereutectic Flat Tops, 3.970”

Awesome. How far down in the cylinder?

Heads are 171cc / 77cc.

Terrific! I made a mistake in not being crystal clear on something I thought obvious. So…. Again, LOL, how many cc’s is the chamber?

Fel Pro 8553PT head gaskets are 4.180 in bore.

How thick is this gasket installed?

 

[79B100]

63cc chamber. Not sure about gasket; can measure this weekend. Also not sure about depth. Sorry for missing info.

 

[WileERobby]

Maybe I didn't see it, but what is your ignition timing set at ?

 

[dan juhasz]

This is a scary tale. I pray you haven't already damaged the cam and lifters with all that cranking. That cranking compression is too low. It should be at least 150. You have probably washed out the cylinders with raw fuel, add a squirt or two of oil in each bore with all the plugs out and crank it over a few times, recheck compression then and see if it's normal. Then go over all the basics from the beginning, remove the plug from number one and turn the engine over by hand and verify compression stroke as its comes up to TDC. Then double check where the rotor is pointing. Double check the firing order and direction of rotation of the distributor the way you laid out the spark plug wires, I've seen guys lay out the wires in the wrong rotation . Are you checking for spark at the end of a plug wire? I ask because that GM distributor rotor used to like burning a pin hole in the center straight to ground. The engine would have started fine even with the .015 lash on hydraulics.

 

[Bird 426]

Not real crazy about seeing the inside of your block painted. Will that paint hold up to engine oil and heat? Someone I used to race with did that, lost an engine over it, the paint dissolved and plugged oil pickup screen. Can't arm chair your engine no start, but seems like cam timing. It should start unless you have 0-5 compression, old airplane engines ran at 5 to 1 compression.

 

[rumblefish360]

63cc chamber. Not sure about gasket; can measure this weekend. Also not sure about depth. Sorry for missing info.

No worries!

 

[493 Mike]

New damper? Old could have slipped a little-screwing up your timing.
Mike

 

[Geoff 2]

Congrats on using the HEI dist & Edel carb. Wise choices.

Doesn't matter what the CR, engine should show signs of life when cranking. Even if timing was out, would expect maybe a backfire.
Couple of things to check;
- the HEI grounds through the dist body to the block. Make sure you have clean metal where the dist clamp touches the body. I grind some ribs in the clamp for really good contact.
- if tach is hooked up to dist, disconnect in case it is causing a problem.
- I presume you have check that the HEI is getting the full 12v during cranking. Run a jumper to battery if unsure.
- Remove dist & make sure there is an air gap between the reluctor & all 8 segments. If contact is made, no spark on that cyl.
- I presume the 0.015" you refer to is the amount the pushrod has depressed the cup in the lifter. Those lifters have at least 0.120" of travel [ & usually more like 150 ] & can be set anywhere within that range. So do not try & set them on the edge. Find the 4 position adjustment method on the web. Turn over the engine with a wrench slowly until you see #1 intake valve close; stop; continue to turn over slowly until the TDC comes up on the dampener. Adjust 4 valves. Repeat until 16 valves are adjusted. To adjust: loosen adjusters; spin p'rod with fingers while tightening adjuster screw. When you feel the p'rod has gone tight [ all play has gone ], tighten adjuster one turn further & lock the lock nut.
- make sure the carb is full of fuel!!! Fill the bowls using the vent tube until you see fuel coming out of the pri booster nozzles; also make sure the acc pump shot is working.

 

[dvw]

You say it does even spit or sputter unless the distributor is 180 out. If this is the case I believe you have spark while cranking. Not sure how you wire your HEI ignition feed? If the ignition switch doesn't have the blue and brown ( colr may be off thiese are car colors) wires tied together it may only have spark in crank. But not in run. Brown wire is hot in crank only. Blue wire is hot in run only. You have compression and fuel. The cam is lined up dot to dot. So unless there is some very wierd cam timing issue (which I highly doubt). I do worry about lack of cam lube after multiple attempts to run. Personnally I'd relube the cam and lifters.
Doug

 

[DeltaV]

More info in his other thread:

Thread '318 Crank No Start' 318 Crank No Start