Got the 572 back, Now lets find some power

[2quick]

As some may know, my brand new 572 was sent back to INDY to fix a balancing issue. Its is finally fixed, and was run on their dyno for a few hours to break in, and a couple power pulls were done. It made 781hp and 680tq. I am hoping with the right intake and throttle body these numbers go up. The motor was run using a untouched 440-2 intake and an 950 carb. The cam is an EFI grind and does not like a carb for power is what I was told.

The basics:
Indy MAXX 572
440-1 345cnc 1.5 rockers
11.5:1
.285/.296 @ .050 dur
.726/.707 lift
R112+4

So for fueling and timing I run Holley HP EFI. I was running a F.A.S.T throttle body with a 4150 flange but recently purchased the a Holley Terminator X 4500 Throttle Body as seen below:

• 4500 Units Contain 8 Injectors, and Support up to 1500 HP Naturally Aspirated or 1250 HP with Forced Induction
• 2.125” Throttle Plates, Flow 1440 CFM for Large Cubic Inch Engines

Holley EFI 534-302 Holley EFI Terminator X Stealth 4500 Throttle Body - Black

I need an intake for this set up! Indy wants me to get their max ported 440-3x.....
This is a street car
What are my options for good power and drivability with TBI fuel injection. Dont wan to give up power but needs to have decent street manners. Is the X manifold to big? Would I be better of buying a used 440-3 and having it ported by Wilson? INDY wants A $1000 to port any manifold they offer. Would Wilson provide a better product for nearly same money?

 

[68Moparmaniac]

Man sounds like a beast you got there. EFI advice.. go multi-point sequential fuel injection instead of TBI, better fuel distribution for each cylinder, tunability... my 2 cents. It is more work regarding fuel delivery system but worth it.

 

[2quick]

Man sounds like a beast you got there. EFI advice.. go multi-point sequential fuel injection instead of TBI, better fuel distribution for each cylinder, tunability... my 2 cents. It is more work regarding fuel delivery system but worth it.

Sequential has its advantages one not being looks. I hate the way injectors, rails, and air valves look on an older car. My goal is to make it look the part of a dominator, But be controllable via Laptop.

 

[68Moparmaniac]

Good luck with your project.

 

[2quick]

Good luck with your project.

Didn't mean to offend anyone....If that's what happened.

 

[PRHeads]

Not an EFI guy, so no guidance here.
But I do have a question…….. how will you be quantifying the improvements?

It’s interesting the comment about the EFI cam profile.
It’s not much different from a few I’ve used on higher hp carb applications……… and I don’t think it’s much different than DVW’s cam.

Would Wilson provide a better product for nearly same money?

You’d have to check with Wilson, but I suspect the “fully ported” option from them is considerably more than $1000.

 

[68Moparmaniac]

Didn't mean to offend anyone....If that's what happened.​

None taken, just some friendly advice from another MoPar guy that's gone down that road. I evaluated all the EFI possibilities and found that sequential EFI is superior to TBI in most all aspects of the systems available today. I understand that the TBI systems are easier to install and don't require such a profound delivery method as the full blown sequential setup, plus they sorta keep the "old skool" look of a carburetor if that is indeed important to your build. Again, good luck with your project brother no matter which way you decide to go .

 

[2quick]

Not an EFI guy, so no guidance here.
But I do have a question…….. how will you be quantifying the improvements?

It’s interesting the comment about the EFI cam profile.
It’s not much different from a few I’ve used on higher hp carb applications……… and I don’t think it’s much different than DVW’s cam.



You’d have to check with Wilson, but I suspect the “fully ported” option from them is considerably more than $1000.

No way to do back to back on engine dyno, but it will be tuned on chassis dyno at some point in the next couple months.

EFI cam vs Carb cam statement (Straight from INDY)....

I had asked why the paperwork I received with the dyno sheet stated: "Engine made 781hp with wrong cam and carb too small, with correct cam and fully ported 3X intake - will make 850+"
When I asked why they stated I had the wrong cam (They specked it) I was told: "Your cam has EFI style lobes and centerline----carbs just hate these specs----so the cam is wrong for carb only----the cam will work fine with your EFI"

Indy Max porting option is +$1000 on top of cost of intake so another $900 = $1900+ more if 440-3X

 

[PRHeads]

The carb was too small for sure.

I guess time will tell.

Looking forward to following along with the upgrades

 

[stage3]

Comp Low shock 285/296 dur .

i just ordered a CC roller for my mega block 505 build, they tried to sell me on a low shock cam. when i gave them the spec's i was looking for the new cam, card came back with differant duration numbers producing lower HP and TQ numbers across the range on my dyno sim software than what i wanted. i again inputted the old numbers with the new LSA and lift , duration etc and the HP numbers jumped well above the older cam with differant spec's... i called them back and had them change the lobes back from "low shock".

 

[PRHeads]

For Drag N Drive stuff, lobes that are smooth and easy on parts make a lot of sense.

 

[2quick]

Ohh and yes this is built for dragweek stuff. Stuck at 10.00 till my cage gets upgraded and get 8.50 license. Then somewhere in the middle.

 

[4speed68rt]

So it's not a street car. It is for drag racing. That makes more sense as to why you are trying to get more power than 781 HP. Sounds cool.

 

[dvw]

Not an EFI guy, so no guidance here.
But I do have a question…….. how will you be quantifying the improvements?

It’s interesting the comment about the EFI cam profile.
It’s not much different from a few I’ve used on higher hp carb applications……… and I don’t think it’s much different than DVW’s cam.

I have a similar cam to this that I haven't tried, int .484 lobe @285, exh.471 lobe @296 on 112. The one in the engine is smaller; int .471@285, exh .471@292 on 112. Both are the same lobe family, RX int, XCX exh. They also are run with a 1.7 rocker. It has higher compression at 15-1. Runs the Indy 440-25 intake with -1 heads. When it had 2 750 Eddy carbs in mine shaft air it went a best of 9.03. With 2 4150 Holleys and less gear It's been 8.96 in decent air. Both were at 3350lbs.
Doug

 

[2quick]

So the real question is a PORTED 440-3 or a PORTED 440-3X a better option for what I am doing? Street manners of -3 vs -3X?

 

[2quick]

Comp Low shock 285/296 dur .

i just ordered a CC roller for my mega block 505 build, they tried to sell me on a low shock cam. when i gave them the spec's i was looking for the new cam, card came back with differant duration numbers producing lower HP and TQ numbers across the range on my dyno sim software than what i wanted. i again inputted the old numbers with the new LSA and lift , duration etc and the HP numbers jumped well above the older cam with differant spec's... i called them back and had them change the lobes back from "low shock".

I've not used dyno sim software. Can it really be used to accurately compare cam selection at this level?

 

[Garceau]

Didn't mean to offend anyone....If that's what happened.​

None taken, just some friendly advice from another MoPar guy that's gone down that road. I evaluated all the EFI possibilities and found that sequential EFI is superior to TBI in most all aspects of the systems available today. I understand that the TBI systems are easier to install and don't require such a profound delivery method as the full blown sequential setup, plus they sorta keep the "old skool" look of a carburetor if that is indeed important to your build. Again, good luck with your project brother no matter which way you decide to go .

I am wanting EFI of some sort on my 505. I have looked at almost every aspect of each.....

My lil bro has some serious connections within the EFI industry and will tell me the TBI will make more peak HP. Something with charge velocity, and more time for fuel to atomize prior to combustion. But the MPI will be easier to tune for all around better performance. While making a little less peak HP - its quite possible it would be faster all around for middle of the RPM curve etc.

However I havent found an MPI system that will work with the HP range I need it..... everything is 550-600hp that I have found. Then of course is finding manifolds that will work.....

I was sold on just putting a good carb on it, but I was going areomotive tank, return lines etc..... then realized by the time I did that, went with a new carb, and 350 dollar regulator for the carb. I might as well just got with EFI....LOL

Now I am intrigued on a EFI spec'd cam..... I had a few of my older cams on the shelves I planned to run. Small 640ish roller set ups. But they are old school

 

[RemCharger]

Frieberger did a test on enginemasters that showed more hp with a carb over multiport due to the wet intake vs dry on the efi. The dry intake heated the air up. It was enlightening

 

[PRHeads]

I have a similar cam to this that I haven't tried, int .484 lobe @285, exh.471 lobe @296 on 112

I don’t know if there are other lobes with those same specs, that are specifically “low shock”, but the lift/duration/lsa are the same as Quicks cam.

Valve lift with 1.5’s is .726/.707

 

[PRHeads]

So the real question is a PORTED 440-3 or a PORTED 440-3X a better option for what I am doing? Street manners of -3 vs -3X?

3X is almost 1” taller…….do you have the room?

IMO, on a build like this, the “street manners” part will come down to the skill/abilities of the tuner.