Well, I've had enough of this 440 Mystery Motor

[moparedtn]

If you set the cam for the particular rocker/lifter you are going to check, then look at the lifter cup and see how far down it is from the wire clip that holds it in.

You could guestimate for now. (Do a visual)
Is it .020 below the wire clip, or is it .100 below or more ect.

You see what I see in the pics I posted.
They do appear to be a pretty good ways down?

 

[khryslerkid]

You see what I see in the pics I posted.
They do appear to be a pretty good ways down?

Thats what I'm seeing. I'm not there to see for myself but they look bottomed out. Then you stated that you couldn't push down on any rockers.

 

[oldbee]

Never heard about the "too long" pushrods years ago,but it sure sounds possible; maybe I got lucky in my couple "changing everything at once" rebuilds. Per the previous post on reading spark plugs- driving around town and checking color of plugs; I think he's thinking more of racing where you cut off engine in the traps. Street driving should still show you what the engine is "normally" seeing and running at.

 

[Garys1969RR]

Sounds like the plunger may be bottomed in the lifter. If that happened, then as the engine warmed up it could possibly prevent some of the valves from closing completely, causing it to miss and run rough. You may try shimming your rocker shafts by .040 to bring the plunger up higher in the lifter. Wouldn't be hard to do, and it might fix it. Be worth a try.

 

[moparedtn]

When the pushrod checker gets here, I'll back off the rocker shafts and watch to see just how much the plungers are being depressed - well, at least as much as they will show me, seeing as though they're still pumped up with oil I think?
I know either way (pumped up or bottomed out), I wouldn't be able to tell by simply trying to depress them with the pushrod/rocker, so hopefully I'll see something as pressure is let off them by backing off the rockers.

Just how DO you relieve pressure on lifters, anyways?

 

[khryslerkid]

Just how DO you relieve pressure on lifters, anyways

They return on their own when there's nothing pushing on them. Spring loaded.

 

[dvw]

Ok a couple more thoughts. I could buy the pushrod/milled head possibly causing the lifter piston to be bottomed out. That could make it miss if it held the valve open. It doesn't cause the lifter to collapse, it compresses it solid. However that doesn't explain the noise. Also when I've seen this issue it doesn't come and go. Are you sure it doesn't have a broken valve spring? Also lets get off the lean issue. That is not making a noise. Get the noise and miss diagnosed first.
Doug

 

[Cornpatch MO]

Hey CM, thanks for the advice.
You still think that's necessary, though? Pretty convincing evidence of oil getting to the rockers here, especially since it's been almost three weeks since it last ran.

I check out the least complicated stuff first. I don't know about what goes on under a Mopar valve cover at 2000+ RPM but the ones I do know, oil goes all over which would result in puddles in the rockers. Those puddles would not drain out when sitting. I'm not an Ace, just many years of experience..not all that many on Moipars....................MO

 

[khryslerkid]

It doesn't cause the lifter to collapse, it compresses it solid.

Is there a position in the travel of the lifter's piston where it would hold pressure, then a fraction below that it would loose pressure without bottoming out.

In other words, how much preload can you place on a lifter's piston before it looses pressure and collapses. If there is such a thing.

 

[mopar 3 B]

Ok a couple more thoughts. I could buy the pushrod/milled head possibly causing the lifter piston to be bottomed out. That could make it miss if it held the valve open. It doesn't cause the lifter to collapse, it compresses it solid. However that doesn't explain the noise. Also when I've seen this issue it doesn't come and go. Are you sure it doesn't have a broken valve spring? Also lets get off the lean issue. That is not making a noise. Get the noise and miss diagnosed first.
Doug

If lifter preload is set to tight and with the engine temp at normal operating temp. Valve train component fully expanded the noise could be valves slapping pistons and not closing. This could be the noise source and the reason for lost power. Better to run a valve train loose than to tight.

 

[Cornpatch MO]

You are correct. It is a mystery motor, so I don't know what (if any) machining has been done to the block. I do know the 906's I recently installed have been milled.

My suggestion: lay the intake back on with no gasket or valley pan. wiggle it to settle it in place and look down thru your manifold bolt holes to see how they line up with the holes in the head. Use a feeler guage to see that there are not gaps in the port areas. Allow for gaskets that would be in the ends of the intake................MO

 

[Cornpatch MO]

To tell the truth, the noise I hear is only half the story - the thing literally felt like it was dropping a cylinder, started running real rough and wouldn't hold an idle.
This happened all at once, after the initial trip into town went quietly and uneventfully.
Then on the way back, after a few heat cycles, going into stores, etc. it reappeared again, just like it's always done before
Whatever it is, it comes back time and again, after initially showing signs of being ok after repairs/mods are completed. Once it "goes bad", it stays bad, too - I can start it up cold next time and the problem is still there, even though it initially showed up when it was warmed up previously and driven.

Does the noise and poor running happen at exactly the same time? Are we sure the noise wasn't spark jumping to ground? or was is much louder? Also blocking the heat riser will not affect rich/lean once the engine is at running temp, warm-up , then yes.
Doug[/QUOTE]
Why didn't you give us these symptoms earlier? We could be clear off base in trying to figger this problem out..................MO

 

[moparedtn]

Ok a couple more thoughts. I could buy the pushrod/milled head possibly causing the lifter piston to be bottomed out. That could make it miss if it held the valve open. It doesn't cause the lifter to collapse, it compresses it solid. However that doesn't explain the noise. Also when I've seen this issue it doesn't come and go. Are you sure it doesn't have a broken valve spring? Also lets get off the lean issue. That is not making a noise. Get the noise and miss diagnosed first.
Doug

Could I actually be hearing a lifter bottoming out? Perhaps a valve smacking its' seat awkwardly as a result?

 

[moparedtn]

If lifter preload is set to tight and with the engine temp at normal operating temp. Valve train component fully expanded the noise could be valves slapping pistons and not closing. This could be the noise source and the reason for lost power. Better to run a valve train loose than to tight.

Kinda what I'm wondering myself.
Very curious to see the results of the pushrod checker.

 

[moparedtn]

My suggestion: lay the intake back on with no gasket or valley pan. wiggle it to settle it in place and look down thru your manifold bolt holes to see how they line up with the holes in the head. Use a feeler guage to see that there are not gaps in the port areas. Allow for gaskets that would be in the ends of the intake................MO

Oh I did once I found out it didn't like any composite gaskets in there at all. I set the intake on there with no gaskets at all and shined a flashlight down through the bolt holes. Things were sooooo close to not working, but I figured a)the metal bathtub isn't very thick and b)"this is what I got, gonna make it work".
Started a bolt on one side and commenced to prying it down on the other side in order to get one started over there.
Two hours, a lot of cussing and repositioning and wrestling later, they all were started - some admittedly by brute force.
Needless to say, I will be running a tap down those threads in the heads before another is ever installed - IF I keep this damn thing, that is.

 

[moparedtn]

Does the noise and poor running happen at exactly the same time? Are we sure the noise wasn't spark jumping to ground? or was is much louder? Also blocking the heat riser will not affect rich/lean once the engine is at running temp, warm-up , then yes.
Doug

Why didn't you give us these symptoms earlier? We could be clear off base in trying to figger this problem out..................MO[/QUOTE]
I have, numerous times before.
I do apologize for making some assumptions here, however:
1. That folks have been following along (or going back and reading) my previous threads on this subject, of which there are several in this seemingly never-ending struggle
2. That folks are even able to follow along on this convoluted site, of which the "architecture" I am not a fan of. Way too easy to get lost on here. Reminds me of the old "php nuke" type forums.

 

[moparedtn]

Is this a good pushrod checker?
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-7704-1

Also, I'd like opinions on a good intake for a mild 440 such as this one (or its' looming replacement), one that will not make hood clearance an issue?
Single plane (ex.: Street Dominator) or Dual (ex.: Edelbrock Performer)?
I'm probably going to wind up with either a Holley or Edelbrock/Carter square bore type carb either way.

 

[dvw]

A bottomed lifter will not make noise. Any preload will function as long as there is no valve float and the lifter piston isn't bottomed out solid. I highly doubt that the cam is big enough for the valves to hit the pistons if the lifter was solid. Besides if it hit hard enough to make it run poorly the valve (s) would be bent. We don't know that a lifter is not bleeding down while running. If a lifterbleed down (collapsed) it shouldn't cause a rough running condition as that valve would loose lift but still function. The more I think about it if in fact it is only one problem I belive for some reason a valve (s) are hanging open. Bad spring, tight guide??
Doug

 

[moparedtn]

A bottomed lifter will not make noise. Any preload will function as long as there is no valve float and the lifter piston isn't bottomed out solid. I highly doubt that the cam is big enough for the valves to hit the pistons if the lifter was solid. Besides if it hit hard enough to make it run poorly the valve (s) would be bent. We don't know that a lifter is not bleeding down while running. If a lifterbleed down (collapsed) it shouldn't cause a rough running condition as that valve would loose lift but still function. The more I think about it if in fact it is only one problem I belive for some reason a valve (s) are hanging open. Bad spring, tight guide??
Doug

I suppose it's possible, of course. These heads were fresh out of a reputable machine shop when I got them, rebuilt with some bad valves replaced, decked flat, etc.

I still have in the back of my head the fact this engine, same cam and bottom end but with the old heads (516's) on it, managed to bend a pushrod before.
That's when I replaced the heads with these rebuilt 906's and replaced the pushrods with these new Comp Cams ones.

 

[khryslerkid]

If a lifterbleed down (collapsed) it shouldn't cause a rough running condition as that valve would loose lift but still function.

I had 383 that a lifter collapsed while I was driving. Exhaust valve, you could hear it in the tailpipe. Rocker sounded like a guy playing the spoons. Engine shook like a plug wire was off.