about That car....

[resq302]

Dave,

Watch out ! They might claim the air in the tires isn't air and actually nitrogen in place of air. lol

 

[ECS]

Dave, Watch out !

It's quite simple. I encourage them to report me to whatever Authority they deem fit to stop whatever "fraud" they feel I'm trying to perpetuate.

 

[ws23jrt]

This thread appears to be a place for the duo to let it all back out. The risk of this thread being locked is easy to take.

My beef with the big picture of all this is about fraud or the perception of it.

Making a one of one car is one thing but spending all the extra special effort to make it as close to as it would have been to original (if it was made) clearly speaks about selling a knowledge about how they were.

Making copy's of original documents as a business may not be against the law but to me it diminishes the value of all original cars just because the public get's used to it being the norm.

If the cars vin tag is gone---it's just plain gone. -----The original engine in my Hemi coronet is gone and I have no intention of stamping the vin on another block just to make it seem more original.

Building a reputation for knowing what is right about these cars is something that can only happen from a long history of questing hearsay and not making statements about how things were. We all know an *** when we see one ----hearing them tell us over and over they are otherwise changes nothing.

 

[ECS]

????

My beef with the big picture of all this is about fraud or the perception of it.

Fraud? Please SPECIFICALLY point out what I am doing that is fraudulent. The entire project has been documented for the entire World to see. That's hardly the actions of someone trying to hide their criminal activity.

If there was never a 4 Door Concept car made back in 1969 then no one can claim this is anything more than a Custom Car, like any other Custom Car that is constructed by a Custom Car Builder. It looks like the only way you guys are going to prove "fraud" or "counterfeit" with this project is to admit that there WAS a 4 Door Barracuda Concept Car built by Chrysler in 1969. It appears some of you have just placed yourself in a trick box with your accusations!

Below is the meaning of "Fraud" since you obviously don't comprehend its actual meaning:

Fraud - Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

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This thread appears to be a place for the duo to let it all back out.

Then the OP should not have started the thread and invited me to come here to comment about the false allegations being made about MY project!

 

[ws23jrt]

The "project" has not to to with my use of the word "fraud"

I am indeed a simplton and do need reminders from time to time about the meaning of the words I chose.

Making reproductions of documents is an area that makes the use of the word "fraud" very much a useful word.
I'm sure you are very aware (perhaps more then most) what you are doing when you "recreate" the things you do.
Whether something is legal or not changes nothing about what is done.
It is a free market to make money and get away with whatever one wants.
The letter of any given law is just a guideline given in an attempt to steer the public in a direction.

Ethics is a word that I like to use.

You can look that up and construe it's meaning as you will.

 

[ECS]

Ethics is a word that I like to use.

Then let me be perfectly clear. I don't live my life based on the "ethics" that strangers deem appropriate for me to follow. I don't lie, cheat, steal or mislead ANYONE in my dealings with them. You may not like the Car I drive, the Clothes I wear or the Products I offer to the Industry but that's of no concern to me.

If I were to manufacture products that didn't look just like the originals, some of you would ridicule me for falling short of the mark. When I make something that looks just like an original, I'm accused of perpetuating "fraud" or lacking in "ethics". I can't win for losing. Since you guys don't ask my opinion for the way you live your life or the projects you do, I think I'll just keep doing what I feel is appropriate for me.

 

[RT SE 440]

sorry i haven't really been following this real close but i think the cars fantastic of what could have, should have, may have been if that makes sense .unfortunately not every body sees it this way.life's to short to worry about how people in the future will see this car its a about now.enjoy your time on this earth every one get over it .

 

[Richard Cranium]

So who are you arguing with that said it is "FACT" that Chrysler did anything? I've said all along that I simply believe those Gentlemen and the information they told me.

There are no facts, all you put up for evidence is hearsay. Until such fact(s) really do surface, there is no proof.

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sorry i haven't really been following this real close but i think the cars fantastic of what could have, should have, may have been if that makes sense .unfortunately not every body sees it this way.life's to short to worry about how people in the future will see this car its a about now.enjoy your time on this earth every one get over it .

I don't think that anyone has a problem with the work and fabrication of his vehicle, but for those who say that they don't care about the VIN aspect or the (possible) re-writing of history with this ongoing saga, as a hobbyist, you should be concerned for the general well being of the Mopar hobby when someone is fabricating an authentic looking, but counterfeit VIN plate complete with the Chrysler logo. And if it's true that Chrysler supposedly doesn't have a problem with this, then shame on them.

I believe Mr. ECS when he says that he is not going to try to pass this car off as anything other than his creation, but when you you have the ability to create a bogus VIN tag, a repro fender tag, repro broadcast sheet (and a repro door VIN decal for a 71-71 cars) and put them on a rust free survivor or a Dynacorn body shell (when/if they start making Mopar copies) you now have the "legitimate" makings of a long lost, but newly surfaced Hemi Charger Daytona or Hemi Cuda at a fraction of the cost of a real one.

Now, someone tell me that this is not a possibility?

 

[ECS]

.....(possible) re-writing of history......counterfeit VIN .....a Dynacorn body shell......a possibility?

Re-writing history with a VIN that represents nothing? Let's see.....BH41, an impossible never existent Body style and the number 100000......an impossible sequence series that could of never exist on a real FACTORY PRODUCTION vehicle with the DMV. Two BLATANT impossibilities in the VIN World and you're worried that it may somehow become "real"? That's funny!

And a "Dynacorn body shell"?! Why don't you show us where a 4 Door Barracuda "Dynacorn body shell" can be obtained or purchased. Why don't you stick with your lies about this project instead of now trying to vilifying me with your hypothetic, imaginary, future crimes. Better yet, why don't you be a Man and post your real name so you can proudly stand behind your slander instead of having to comment from the shadows like a coward. Your delusional and imaginary concerns are duly noted however.

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There are no facts, all you put up for evidence is hearsay. Until such fact(s) really do surface, there is no proof.

Then by your own admission, all of your previously stated concerns about this imaginary Car are not valid and there is no real concern about re-writing "history" on a Concept vehicle that never existed.........right?

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.....when someone is fabricating an authentic looking, but counterfeit VIN plate....

Again, your comment is completely false and a lie. There has never been a "counterfeit VIN plate" made for this car. Please provide proof of the other "valuable" vehicle that I am trying to do an "exact imitation of" for the purpose of "fraud". Point out another Car that has that "exact" same vehicle number assigned to it!

Once again, you're insinuating that there must be a real Concept 4 Door Barracuda that's being "imitated" here. Below is the definition once again, since you obviously do not understand the meaning of the word "counterfeit".

COUNTERFEIT - made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud.

 

[mmissile]

Richard's having fun............

 

[Richard Cranium]

Let's see, we have a guy who is in possession of a counterfeit VIN tag (stamped by who is a mystery) and unsubstantiated claims of certain cars being built 46 years ago, and yet, I am the one being called a liar? Once again, this is ECS' pattern; when someone presses him for simple answers that you do not want to answer, he attacks the person who raises questions.

The 4-door Cuda is not a "real" Chrysler built car and we are all fine with that, but it's the continued unsubstantiated story that he tries to pass off as truth is where the root of the problem lies.

What was said in my post above is something that's something of a digression. We all know that ECS can reproduce broadcast sheets and 70-71 door VIN decals along with many high quality repro parts, and he does a fine job of it. But stamping VIN tags takes things to a whole different level. What's to stop the person who created his bogus VIN plate from making one for a "missing" XX29J9B or a BS23ROB car that easily has six figure value? Am I or anyone here accusing ECS of a crime? Of course not. But, the possibility of this happening is there, would you all not agree?

To me, the counterfeit VIN that ECS plans on putting on the fake 4-door Cuda looks to be 100% legitimate and the ability of any VIN plates to be now stamped is a big area of concern for this hobby. Others here may not care about a fake VIN, but I assure you that anyone who may purchase a car with a counterfeit VIN would care.

 

[ECS]

Let's see, we have a guy who is in possession of a counterfeit VIN tag (stamped by who is a mystery) and unsubstantiated claims of certain cars being built 46 years ago, and yet, I am the one being called a liar? Once again, this is ECS' pattern; when someone presses him for simple answers that you do not want to answer, he attacks the person who raises questions.

Then turn me in for "counterfeiting". You have all the pictures posted here to do it, so have at it! For the record, I've answered every "question" that's been asked about this project. Care to add any other lies?

 

[cudak888]

Because Big Brother doesn't give a damn about historical ethics. Consider these articles, both written by ECS:

http://www.ecsvin.com/downloads/AEII.pdf
http://www.bodyshopbusiness.com/why-do-some-claims-personnel-question-the-legality-of-vin-labels/

Bias of these articles aside, one can see from the results that the federal government (NICB, NHTSA, etc), the automotive manufacturer, and the underwriter are only concerned that the reproduced plate or stickers serve their federally-mandated purpose as intended, font, accuracy, and originality notwithstanding.

Apparently, neither the feds nor Chrysler found anything wrong with the idea of creating a new VIN number for a unibody previously carrying another either - since we're presently debating just that. Far as the lawmakers are concerned, the source has already provided enough good faith in their eyes. That doesn't make it right though. For any other non-trusted, non-licensed, non-$5-million-dollar-insurance-policy carrying plebeian, this stunt would put them in the slammer.

Hell, most of us plebeians who have a hard enough time trying to transfer title when one state's concept of a "legal title" is another state's concept of "bull$hit," and logic no longer applies.

Just because it's legal doesn't mean its right.

 

[ECS]

Because Big Brother doesn't give a damn about historical ethics. Consider these articles, both written by ECS:

http://www.ecsvin.com/downloads/AEII.pdf
http://www.bodyshopbusiness.com/why-do-some-claims-personnel-question-the-legality-of-vin-labels/

Bias of these articles aside, one can see from the results that the federal government (NICB, NHTSA, etc), the automotive manufacturer, and the underwriter are only concerned that the reproduced plate or stickers serve their federally-mandated purpose as intended, font, accuracy, and originality notwithstanding.

That's funny. Now YOU have become the resident expert on VIN Law. Apples & Oranges. You're comparing people who clone the vehicle of another existing car to fraud the Industry. This project represents itself. There has never been a counterfeit VIN reproduced. There is no other car that has been "copied" or "imitated" with the intent to "fraud" someone for the sake of financial gain. Do you not understand the difference in building a Custom Car versus attempting to duplicate an exact copy of an existing vehicle? Did you really need that explained or were you just pretending to be so ignorant?

 

[ECS]

Consider these articles, both written by ECS:

http://www.ecsvin.com/downloads/AEII.pdf
http://www.bodyshopbusiness.com/why-do-some-claims-personnel-question-the-legality-of-vin-labels/

Get your facts straight. Neither article was written by me. Both were written by independent Members of the CIC. The first was written by Tony Passwater and the second by Jason Stahl. Feel free to contact the Men who wrote the articles with any complaints you may have.

 

[RT SE 440]

ecs i'm so upset you have dropped the value on my 4 door cuda that i dont have

 

[Richard Cranium]

And a "Dynacorn body shell"?! Why don't you show us where a 4 Door Barracuda "Dynacorn body shell" can be obtained or purchased.

Of course they aren't dopey enough to do that! However, body shells for other brands are available and they may very well be for Mopars in the future.

You conveniently didn't answer the point about fabricating a new "authentic looking" XS29J9B VIN****** VIN tag. If one can be fabricated your project car, could it not also be made for a "thought to be destroyed" Hemi Cuda or Hemi Daytona?

This is a very simple yes or no question.

 

[cudak888]

You conveniently didn't answer the point about fabricating a new "authentic looking" XS29J9B VIN****** VIN tag. If one can be fabricated your project car, could it not also be made for a "thought to be destroyed" Hemi Cuda or Hemi Daytona?

There aren't many checks and balances that can be applied to an order of a data decal*. Just like a title service, so long as the owner of a vehicle can prove legal ownership and provide documentation and photos to show that said vehicle exists and is in that owner's possession - whether it is Swiss cheese or not - that's enough to get the decal produced and sent to the buyer's door, regardless of whether the vendor acts in good faith or not.

Of course, the buyer may go slap it on a completely different car. That's the problem, and there isn't any way to check that. Case in point: A friend of mine owns (possibly "owned") an original, never-used Chrysler broadcast data sheet (either 1968, 1969, or 1970; I do not remember which). If everyone's intentions were genuine, this paper would have little value except for being framed (after all, even a crumbly original data sheet carries more historical provenance than a mint recreation printed on original paper, even if all the data is genuine). In short, it shouldn't be an ultra-desirable piece. Well, if you only knew how many people have begged, screamed, and pushed the envelope of human tolerance for him to sell that paper at any cost, you'd take a very dim view on a number of very "respectable" Mopar folks. You know what they had planned for that build sheet.

*Far as I know, the OP does not offer reproduction VIN plates on his site, only door jamb decals. Of course, threads like these could also be seen as a back door advertisement for just that, but that's another story.

 

[ECS]

"authentic looking" XS29J9B VIN****** VIN tag. If one can be fabricated your project car, could it not also be made for a "thought to be destroyed" Hemi Cuda or Hemi Daytona?

This is a very simple yes or no question.

So it appears we've just switched complaints again......right? Here's the answer to your new concern and question:

NO.

 

[moparnation74]

There aren't many checks and balances that can be applied to an order of a data decal*. Just like a title service, so long as the owner of a vehicle can prove legal ownership and provide documentation and photos to show that said vehicle exists and is in that owner's possession - whether it is Swiss cheese or not - that's enough to get the decal produced and sent to the buyer's door, regardless of whether the vendor acts in good faith or not.

Of course, the buyer may go slap it on a completely different car. That's the problem, and there isn't any way to check that. Case in point: A friend of mine owns (possibly "owned") an original, never-used Chrysler broadcast data sheet (either 1968, 1969, or 1970; I do not remember which). If everyone's intentions were genuine, this paper would have little value except for being framed (after all, even a crumbly original data sheet carries more historical provenance than a mint recreation printed on original paper, even if all the data is genuine). In short, it shouldn't be an ultra-desirable piece. Well, if you only knew how many people have begged, screamed, and pushed the envelope of human tolerance for him to sell that paper at any cost, you'd take a very dim view on a number of very "respectable" Mopar folks. You know what they had planned for that build sheet.

*Far as I know, the OP does not offer reproduction VIN plates on his site, only door jamb decals. Of course, threads like these could also be seen as a back door advertisement for just that, but that's another story.

All good points above!

As RC has stated numerous times the issue is not some dinky door decal. The issue is the stamped metal VIN tag located on the dash.

If one is allowed to pop a metal VIN tag then it sets a precedent for another to occur....As we know this 4 door cuda is being built and is fully disclosed. That is not the issue, the problems is another VIN tag could be produced in the future on a much more rare and more valuable car. So who stamped this VIN tag?