Afx cars-who's right??-lets clear the air

[CUDACOLLINS]

I've been noticing a lot more inquiries and interest on this site about AFX cars. So I thought I would throw this out there just to "CLEAR THE AIR". I'm sure there's a couple of people on this site that know the answers..Now, I know a lot of people did all kind of things to their cars after the original AFX cars came out, BUT please, keep in mind,,,we're talking about the 'ORIGINAL' factory cars ONLY... .Here goes, #1. Back in the day, I think there was only 12 of these cars made from the factory (???) :edgyn the 'ORIGINAL' cars, did they use hardtop cars, or post sedan cars, OR both ??? #2. Did the factory cars use post sedan doors on the hardtop cars ??? #3. If the sedan doors were used on the hardtop bodies, did they use the post from the sedan car, or just the doors ?? Did the factory use torsion bar set-ups (52"?) when they moved the front, OR did they use straight axle set-ups ??? Now remember, we're talking about what the factory did on the ORIGINAL 12 CARS (don't know for sure if that number is correct). Anybody??....Thanks in advance FBBO.....:grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:

 

[696pack]

The altered wheel base car came about because the first Hemi cars built around Feb. 1964 really had only one place to run in sanctioned racing--AFX. Since there were few rules for that class it allowed them to do many things that you couldn't do in stock or Super Stock.

As far as I know the FACTORY didn't build any. The factory made the parts available (like the longer torsion bars) and sent four new original 1964 Dodge Max Wedge cars now outfitted with the new Hemi to the Alexander Brothers shop in Detroit to build the first altered wheel base cars. They were slated for 4 factory sponsored teams, one being the Ramchargers (a team of factory engineers.)

There were several 1964 Hemi cars built and sent to racers like Landy who I believe may have received the first one that he later put a straight axle under it and altered the wheel base as well. That car is considered by most to be the first Funny Car because it looked so funny. Others did their own cars a little later on in 64s because they did not build enough to meet the rules for other classes.

The first 4 as well as Landy's car were all post cars, but they did build a few hardtop 64 Hemi cars that also got converted to altered wheel base cars.

 

[dvw]

The cars were built by Chrysler. Not on the regular line. They used post doors with a hardtop body. They had no posts added to the body itself. Extra long torsion bars. My neighbor did the restoration on the Strickler car for a friend of mine. We actually had access to the original Chrysler blue prints. Some of these pages are in the new Ramchargers book as well. Brackets such as the jack mounts in the trunk were air chiseled off and not ground flat,pretty crude. The blue prints listed all the parts and procedures to assemble the car. I believe the Strickler car may have been the only stick. I was able to align the suspension on the car and got to drive it around the lot,pretty cool. I was able to get into 3rd on the test. The front end felt very light. I'm sure if I hit it hard it would have come up easily. I have a video if I can figure out how to post it.
Doug

 

[64 Post]

I've been noticing a lot more inquiries and interest on this site about AFX cars. So I thought I would throw this out there just to "CLEAR THE AIR". I'm sure there's a couple of people on this site that know the answers..Now, I know a lot of people did all kind of things to their cars after the original AFX cars came out, BUT please, keep in mind,,,we're talking about the 'ORIGINAL' factory cars ONLY... .Here goes, #1. Back in the day, I think there was only 12 of these cars made from the factory (???) :edgyn the 'ORIGINAL' cars, did they use hardtop cars, or post sedan cars, OR both ??? #2. Did the factory cars use post sedan doors on the hardtop cars ??? #3. If the sedan doors were used on the hardtop bodies, did they use the post from the sedan car, or just the doors ?? Did the factory use torsion bar set-ups (52"?) when they moved the front, OR did they use straight axle set-ups ??? Now remember, we're talking about what the factory did on the ORIGINAL 12 CARS (don't know for sure if that number is correct). Anybody??....Thanks in advance FBBO.....:grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:

#1. '65 Hardtop bodies.
#2. Post doors.
#3. Just the doors.
#3.5 Longer torsion bars.

Look for the 21 page AWB manual 4208.7 on eBay. They used to be top secret, but I think they've been leaked for a few years now.

 

[696pack]

The cars were built by Chrysler. Not on the regular line. They used post doors with a hardtop body. They had no posts added to the body itself. Extra long torsion bars. My neighbor did the restoration on the Strickler car for a friend of mine. We actually had access to the original Chrysler blue prints. Some of these pages are in the new Ramchargers book as well. Brackets such as the jack mounts in the trunk were air chiseled off and not ground flat,pretty crude. The blue prints listed all the parts and procedures to assemble the car. I believe the Strickler car may have been the only stick. I was able to align the suspension on the car and got to drive it around the lot,pretty cool. I was able to get into 3rd on the test. The front end felt very light. I'm sure if I hit it hard it would have come up easily. I have a video if I can figure out how to post it.
Doug

The info I posted came from the book "Journey Through Hemiland--The 426 Hemi in 1964" by Pete Haldiman dated April of 1964. Maybe what you have posted has corrected this previous info? Do you know the book? According to this book Chrysler never intended to build them in house on ANY line as it was too far removed from regular production and not cost effective. That is why they sent them to an outside source just as they did with many cars for completion. In fact, this book lists the original 4 cars as being assigned to:
Ramchargers with Jim Thornton Build date 12/23/63
Lawman with Al Eckstrand build date early 64
The Dodge Boys with Dave Strickler build date 1/11/64
Melrose Missile with Tommy Grove build date 1/14/64

 

[72Fourspeed]

Try reading......

"We were the Ramchargers". I got that book for Chrtistmas & it is way full of photos & info. There are pix of the Mule AWB car on it`s first passes. I highly recommend this book,written by one the Ramchargers, Dave Rockwell. I must have read & reread it a dozen times by now. Well worth the $$$. If you want info, this is from the horse`s mouth. It will refute some of the claims you may have heard elsewhere. It also has the photos from the "A/FX Dragster" manual in one chapter. I just cannot recommend this book enough. It covers everything from "The High & Mighty" to the F@#$ Y@# attitude of Wally Parks & his bowtie loving staff of morons. Must reading for anyone who loves the Pentastar. Don.:yes:

 

[CUDACOLLINS]

Found this article , may clear some of this up....GREAT READING.....3 PAGES LONG...........

PLYMOUTH RACE CAR HISTORY - TOTAL RECALL - MATCH RACE MADNESS


Plymouth Race Car History - Total Recall - Match Race Madness
Rebuilding An A/FX Car With The Original Owner
By Darrel Arment
Photography by Darrel Arment


Text Size

Sunday, Sunday, Sunday! Smell the fuel, hear the thunder, feel the ground shake as these wheelstanding, fire-breathing, asphalt monsters scream down the quarter-mile. See Detroit's hottest iron compete head-to-head in what can only be described as Match Race Madness. Be there! Everywhere Drag-O-Way USA! This, or something very much like this, was the battle cry that crackled over the nation's AM airwaves in the mid-'60s. The message was always delivered as an urgent, controlled scream that demanded the attention of the listener. It was never a request; it was simply the place to be if you were young and hip in 1965. It was a wild time in American history; chaos seemed to be the name of the game. Several regions around the globe were at war, most notable to Americans was the Vietnam conflict. Domestically, the civil rights movement was in full swing. It seemed that no matter what else was happening in one's daily life, the underlying drumbeat of war and civil disobedience drove our collective actions.
In the midst of all this activity, the auto manufacturers were preparing themselves for another record year. In the end, nine million cars would be sold to a youth-oriented public. Like everything else at the time, there was an urgency about the cars-they had to be bigger, better, or faster than the competition. One of the most involved was the Chrysler Corporation. Their success with the new 426 Hemi in 1964 had them excited, and that excitement would boil over into two very special projects in 1965: the A990 sedans and the A/FX hardtops.
Now that we have a glimpse at the times that spawned powerful, intriguing, factory-built "race cars," let's focus on one in particular. The '65 Plymouth you see here spent its entire life doing battle on dragstrips across the country. Since the day it was built at the Chrysler facility, it had no other purpose in life. But life on the dragstrip can be harsh, and the beatings these cars took left them "used up" quickly. Luckily, this one was never "used up" and tossed aside. The storied past of this car leaves one to wonder how a race car could be brought back to look better than new. Well, first, we have Lee Smith, the man who originally took the controls of this A/FX car in 1965 and was involved in every step of its restoration from day one. It can't get any better than having the guy that originally built the car on hand to tell you what's right and what's not. Next, we have Jim Welch, a long-time automotive enthusiast, Mopar musclecar collector, and, in this case, preserver of a historical treasure. He was the one owner who was able to assemble the team it would take to put this car back together after it had bounced around the Midwest for forty years. The two major players on the restoration were Larry Pontnack and his crew at Mo-Par City in Oregon, Illinois. They handled the mechanicals build, and came up with many of the really hard to find parts. And when it comes to autobody restoration (or fabrication for that matter), Terry Getzelman and his knowledgeable crew at Getz's Hot Rod Innovations in Hampshire, Illinois, can either fix or fabricate whatever it is. Now that we know who all the players are we can get on with the story.
When Lee Smith first saw the all-new altered wheelbase cars in December 1964, he knew he was looking at something special. These were all-out, down and dirty racing machines that were intended to dominate at the dragstrip, and for the next two seasons that's exactly what these eleven cars would do.
...>>next page
3 pages long. But very interesting-

 

[CUDACOLLINS]

PAGE #2The drivetrain had been pirated from the soon-to-be famous A990 cars. According to research by Jim Schild, author of Authenticity Guide 1965 Dodge and Plymouth Hemi Super Stock, the A990 donor for the Smith A/FX car was VIN RO51188807. The heads on the engine were aluminum, the intake manifold was magnesium, and the headers were all new S & S tubing items. The cam had been reground, but most outwardly noticeable was the 15-inch forward set of the rear wheels and the 10-inch forward movement of the front wheels. The fenders, doors, hood, hoodscoop, bumpers, decklid, and the dashboard were all fiberglass. the factory claimed the total weight of the parts was a scant 80 pounds, netting a 200-pound savings. The windshield was Lexan and the remaining windows were plexiglas; the frames around them were either constructed of aluminum or stainless steel. The interior, like the drivetrain, came right out of the A990 cars, as did the aluminum door hinges and whatever other specialty parts could be scavenged. Specialty items specific to the A/FX cars included a high-strength stainless-steel K-member that reduced the weight by almost 40 pounds, and an unitbody in white that had been acid dipped to reduce its weight by roughly 200 pounds. The finished product weighed around 2,800 pounds, really light for a midsize '60s hardtop.
When Lee picked this car up in Detroit, it was pure white with a tan metallic vinyl interior just like the ten other A/FX hardtop cars that went to factory-backed teams. The AHRA Winternationals at Bee Line Dragway in Phoenix, Arizona, would be the first outing, and, during that appearance, it would be lettered with its first short-lived graphics scheme. Bee Line would be the first time the altered cars (seven would be in attendance) would appear, and the place where Lee Smith heard one of the Ford engineers exclaim as they looked at the new Chrysler creations, "man, those are funny looking cars." from there it was a short step to simply funny cars. So there you have it, another story about how the name came to be.
During the '65-'66 seasons, Lee's car would see five different stages of development (one and two are listed above). During this period, Chrysler kept the mule (purported to be the sixth Plymouth) and the dyno busy in Detroit, so there were constant updates passed along to the eleven guys that had the cars.
The third stage in the evolution came just prior to the Chicago Auto in 1965. In preparation for this exhibit, Lee had the familiar blue-over-white paint scheme with gold-leaf lettering applied to the body. This is also the point where the Satellite stainless trim was added to the body for that bit of additional flash that separated it from the rest of its Belvedere brethren. At this stage, the car was so fresh that the mechanicals were still as delivered by the factory. The real change was under the car where Lee had tied the front and rear subframes together with some 11/48-inch-thick wall 2x4 tubing in an effort to keep it from twisting itself into a knot. Then to further stabilize the structure, he tied the four-point rollbar to the new subframe connectors. he also welded brackets to the subframe that secured the seat because the acid-dipped floor just didn't seem substantial enough for the task.
Then came the fourth stage, and some of the major mechanical changes that would be made to the car. During this stage, the Chrysler-engineered 426-CH-8 Hilborn injection and the parachute were added, and the front brakes were removed. Naturally, along with the Hilborn injection came a new hood, sans the large scoop that had originally been in place. you'll notice when comparing the various A/FX cars that the parachute that Chrysler issued was mounted in a manner determined by the team-that could mean anything from a flat mounting plate at the back of the car to neatly set into the trunk area. To Lee's credit, he and his team chose to build it into the trunk area so the installation did not compete with the lines of the car.
...>>next page
Page Prev 1 2 3 Next

 

[CUDACOLLINS]

Then there was the fifth configuration where the four-speed transmission and the Dana 60 rearend were added to the mix. This fifth and final configuration is the one Jim Welch decided to duplicate when he took on the responsibility of putting the car back to its "as raced" state.
Unlike other race cars that have been put back together, this car retains the bulk of its original body parts, many of its original mechanical pieces, and came with several file drawers full of documentation that Lee kept over the years. It is without question one of the most documented race cars to ever be restored. The paper trail is so meticulously detailed you can literally trace the car's mechanical and on-track history from the time Lee picked it up in Detroit until the day he sold it in late 1966.
Over the years from 1966 till 2004, there were seven owners that held the car for periods of time, but in the end it was Jim Welch who finally assembled the right team to finish the project. More incredible is the fact this team put this rare piece of history back together in ten short months. Plans are to take it out and share it with the public this coming season, so keep an eye out for it.

Owners
Original owner-Lee Smith, Moline, IL
Second owner-Len Peterson, Moline, IL
Third owner-Al Close, Moline, IL
Fourth owners-Ken Snyder and Larry Brinkman, Rockford, IL
Fifth owner-Tolley, Fort Dodge, IA
Sixth owner-Mike Guffey, Hartford City, IN
Seventh owner-Eric Lindberg, Elk River, MN
Eighth owner-Jim Welch, Wayne, IL (2004 to present)
Related Articles

 

[CUDACOLLINS]

this is the car --I'm not saying this is gospel, but seems documented pretty well. It came from a Mopar Muscle article. Anyone else have any insight ?????

 

[696pack]

To the original poster:

First, I think you have to decide what year you are questioning. There were several years that AWB cars were popular, 1964-67.

It seems that the info I posted in my first post has been question but no one has responded directly to the questions of my second post.

I can tell you that Chrysler DID NOT build these cars on any "other line." The assembly plants had what they called "holes" in the plant that they would divert cars to that need special equipment or work, but it was limited to more or less small jobs.

It is factory documented that cars like the Daytonas, Superbirds, and 1968 SS Darts and Cudas were farmed out for the special work on these limited production work, just as I indicated with the 64 AWB cars. The winged cars were sent to Creative Industries for the special work required for theses cars. The 68 SS cars were sent to Hurst Engineering for their work. These were too large of jobs to be done in the factory "holes."

You can bet that if Chrysler would not build the 3000 or so winged cars in normal assembly that they certainly would not do the highly modified AWB cars in plant.

For more on this there is a long article that is basically an interview with an plant engineer from the Lynch Road pland from back in the day about how the winged cars were built. It is also loaded with great info regarding how things were done at these assembly plants. This is on the Winged Warriors website. If you can't find it I have it saved in email form that I will send to anyone that sends me their email address.

Maybe the book that I referenced in my previous posts is incorrect, but I doubt it. The book is loaded with detailed factory letters, part numbers, "how to" info for AWB cars, a 63-65 timeline chart, period pictures of cars, literature list and more. It seems to be well researched. It is an inexpensively limited run produced book that is hard to find.

Here is a link to info on the author I found. I did not read it but there may be info on how to find the book.

http://www.moparmax.com/features/2009/iv_9-hotrod-1.html

BTW, there was a small town Plymouth Dealer in Savanna Illinois, Ferris Motors owned by "Jumpin Jack Ferris" where I lived. He was on the factory race program from 1962-1967. He had a 62 Max Wedge, a 63, a 65 A990, and a 67 WO cars. He sold a lot of hipo cars including another 65 A990 car. Savanna is Only 60 miles north of Moline where Learner's was. The 65 was campaingned as the Torqueflite Tornado. The other A990 car was a 4 speed and he and the other owner often traveled as a team to race. the other car was owned by Larry Griffith.

 

[CUDACOLLINS]

some more info--
1965 Plymouth Factory Altered Wheelbase
by the Auto Editors of Consumer Guide
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Chrysler's corporate drag racing efforts went extreme in 1965 with a handful of purpose-built drag machines born of the muscle car era's "win at all costs" mentality. The 1965 Plymouth Factory Altered Wheelbase cars and their Dodge counterparts resulted from a cutthroat battle between Ford and Chrysler for victory in the NHRA's Super Stock and A/Factory Experimental (A/FX) classes.

Muscle Car Image Gallery


©2007 Publications International, Ltd.
Moving the wheels forward to redestribute weight rearward was
the goal of radical factory modifications to essentially stock
1965 Plymouth Belevederes. See more muscle car pictures.
When Chrysler got wind that Ford was planning to equip its smaller Mustang and Comet bodies with the formidable SOHC (single overhead cam) 427-cid engine for the 1965 A/FX season, it decided that radical measures were necessary to keep its midsize Plymouth Belvederes and Dodge Coronets competitive. In late 1964, Chrysler engineers began constructing six Belvederes and six Coronets for intense dragstrip duty.

Each Mopar altered wheelbase car underwent serious surgery. The wheels were moved forward -- the rear axle by 15 inches, the front suspension by 10 -- to create a 110-inch wheelbase racer that put about 56 percent of the car's weight over the rear tires. The steel body panels were dipped in an acid tank to make them lighter.


©2007 Publications International, Ltd.
The 1965 Plymouth Factory Altered Wheelbase cars employed fiberglass
body panels that were technically factory options for midsize Mopars.
The complete set cost $410 and weighed just 80 pounds.
The bizarre appearance of these radically modified production cars prompted the name "funny car," but the alterations served an important purpose: The shifted wheelbase allowed for superior weight transfer off the starting line. This was critical to achieve adequate traction with the relatively primitive racing tires of the day.

All the Chrysler-built AWB cars were distributed to the factory-backed Dodge and Plymouth drag race teams; Plymouth's roster included such notable wheelmen as Ronnie Sox, Butch Leal, and Al Eckstrand. NHRA officials took one look at the wildly modified cars and quickly banned them from A/FX competition. It didn't really matter, since the cars found a home on the popular and lucrative match race circuit.


©2007 Publications International, Ltd.
The axles were moved forward --
the rear one by 15 inches, the front by 10 --
to create a 110-inch wheelbase racer that put about
56 percent of the car's weight over the rear tires.
All Mopar AWB cars were powered by race-tuned Hemi engines, and they started the season with dual four-barrel carburetion. In this form, they were capable of 10.20-second quarter-mile elapsed times at 138 mph. Chrysler authorized a switch to Hilborn fuel injection during the season, and the ETs improved to the mid nine-second range at 140+ mph. Though the Chrysler AWB cars would be quickly eclipsed by fiberglass-bodied, tube-chassis funny cars, they remain some of the wildest factory-built drag machines ever constructed.

The 1965 Plymouth Belvedere
Factory Altered Wheelbase
Specifications
Wheelbase, inches: 110
Weight, lbs: 3,050
Number built: 6
Base price: NA

Standadrd Engine
Type: ohv V-8
Displacement, cid: 426
Fuel system: 2 x 4bbl.
Compression ratio: 12.5:1
Horsepower @ rpm: 550 @ 5000
Torque @ rpm: 490 @ 4000

Representative Performance
0-60 mph, sec: 4.5 (est.)
1/4 mile, sec. @ mph: 10.20 @ 138

 

[696pack]

You also may want to look at this.

http://stores.ebay.com/Max-Wedge-and-Race-Hemi-Books

 

[CUDACOLLINS]

FOUND THIS & JUST HAD TO SHARE IT -- GREAT VIDEO CLOSE UP OF GOLDEN COMMANDO, AND HEMI HONKER - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umyjsaTrIGg

 

[69 Runner]

5:45 seconds of "posturing" with no real payoff:waiting:

 

[64 Post]

5:45 seconds of "posturing" with no real payoff:waiting:

The posturing was for a magazine shoot by Stunkard. More happening there than meets the eye...

And it was Dick Towers last event before passing away a few months later. Dick was an unsung, behind the scenes legend and Mopar historian. A lot of the pics of early Mopar drag racing are credited to Dick/Match Race Madness.

 

[CUDACOLLINS]

The posturing was for a magazine shoot by Stunkard. More happening there than meets the eye...

And it was Dick Towers last event before passing away a few months later. Dick was an unsung, behind the scenes legend and Mopar historian. A lot of the pics of early Mopar drag racing are credited to Dick/Match Race Madness.

Your 100 percent correct 64 Post. I didn't give all the details tho, but I quess 69 Runner was expecting more, Sorry about that 69 Runner, but I thought it was nice to just see two "back in the day" AFX cars. I thought the samething when I found it - a big race video. But still nice to see 'em.Hey 64 Post, by the way I did have the pleasure of meeting Dick Towers at the all hemi reunion. nice and friendly person. :grin:

 

[69 Runner]

Was nice to see the cars sure, but I expected more. And you're not making feel small for my post. Sorry

 

[CUDACOLLINS]

The cars were built by Chrysler. Not on the regular line. They used post doors with a hardtop body. They had no posts added to the body itself. Extra long torsion bars. My neighbor did the restoration on the Strickler car for a friend of mine. We actually had access to the original Chrysler blue prints. Some of these pages are in the new Ramchargers book as well. Brackets such as the jack mounts in the trunk were air chiseled off and not ground flat,pretty crude. The blue prints listed all the parts and procedures to assemble the car. I believe the Strickler car may have been the only stick. I was able to align the suspension on the car and got to drive it around the lot,pretty cool. I was able to get into 3rd on the test. The front end felt very light. I'm sure if I hit it hard it would have come up easily. I have a video if I can figure out how to post it.
Doug

Post the video !! That would be great Doug. :yes::yes:

 

[HEMI-ITIS]

I am no historian:edgy:BUT I did stay in a Holiday Inn express once:rolling:Here are some pic's I took at THE ALL HEMI REUNION !!