Cam hardening

[old guys rule]

Does having a cam hardened... I think it's called nitriding... Solve the problem for flat tablet camshafts?

 

[Jerry Hall]

Still needs proper break-in.

 

[old guys rule]

Still needs proper break-in.

But it won't take the place of breaking oil in the long run, yes?

 

[BeepBeepRR]

You need to run the engine between 2000 and 2500 rpms for 20 minutes. Unless you went roller cam and roller lifters. Then its not that big of a deal.

 

[BeepBeepRR]

You just need to run high zinc oil VR1 Valvoline is a good one but also there is Lucas oils I think they make a hot rod oil. Just need to have the zinc.

 

[Demonic]

It's not a simple solution. It depends. What's your open & closed valve spring pressure? Do the lifters have the proper profile on the bottom? Does the cam lobe have the proper taper? The cam core has to be a good one, not soft Chinese junk.

 

[Rebelrouser]

Does having a cam hardened... I think it's called nitriding... Solve the problem for flat tablet camshafts?

Nitriding is only one part of the issue, taper on the lobe and proper radius on the lifter bottom is the rest of it. Yes a cam needs proper oil and break-in but if the cam and lifters are not properly machined it will still go flat. I watched a Youtube video of a guy and he rotates the cam by hand with just the lightly oiled lifters and if the lifters do not rotate while the cam is spinning then it comes out and he does not use it. I never tried it yet, but it kind of makes sense.

The supply chain after covid was flooded with junk lifters and poor cam cores, so until they get the junk off the shelfs it is hydraulic or solid roller for me. Problem is I don't think cam companies want to unbox and measure they would just rather sell it, and deal with a few customers griping, which many times they blow off with the famous " you did not break it in right"

 

[Rebelrouser]

Does having a cam hardened... I think it's called nitriding... Solve the problem for flat tablet camshafts?

Nitriding is only one part of the issue, taper on the lobe and proper radius on the lifter bottom is the rest of it. Yes a cam needs proper oil and break-in but if the cam and lifters are not properly machined it will still go flat. I watched a Youtube video of a guy and he rotates the cam by hand with just the lightly oiled lifters and if the lifters do not rotate while the cam is spinning then it comes out and he does not use it. I never tried it yet, but it kind of makes sense.

The supply chain after covid was flooded with junk lifters and poor cam cores, so until they get the junk off the shelfs it is hydraulic or solid roller for me. Problem is I don't think cam companies want to unbox and measure they would just rather sell it, and deal with a few customers griping, which many times they blow off with the famous " you did not break it in right"

 

[RJRENTON]

Does having a cam hardened... I think it's called nitriding... Solve the problem for flat tablet camshafts?

FYI.....
Surface hardening is an economical method to impart high wear resistance in selected areas of the casting. Most common surface hardening methods include flame and induction hardening.
In flame hardening the form of hardening is due to transformation hardening in which the surface layer is heated above the critical temperature A1 to austenitize and during subsequent quenching hard martensite is formed. But the inside core temperature being at below the A1, it is remaining unhardened and so softer.3,4,6

For successful flame hardening the combined carbon content is an important parameter. Most suitable range is 0.5–0.7% but a lower combined carbon with 0.4% can even be flame hardened. However, a high combined carbon above about 0.8% is susceptible to cracking. As silicon favors graphite formation it reduces the combined carbon and so a low silicon content (<2.4%) is recommended for flame hardening. A porous and rough surface is generated after flame hardening when the iron contains a high total carbon with coarse graphite flakes. The flakes are burnt out during flame heating.

Because of their higher hardenability alloyed gray irons are better flame hardened with higher surface hardness and depth. Nickel, chromium, and molybdenum additions are often helpful for this purpose. An unalloyed iron containing 3% total carbon, 1.7% Si, 0.6–0.8% Mn develops a maximum hardness of 400–500 HB
For successful flame hardening the combined carbon content is an important parameter. Most suitable range is 0.5–0.7% but a lower combined carbon with 0.4% can even be flame hardened. However, a high combined carbon above about 0.8% is susceptible to cracking. As silicon favors graphite formation it reduces the combined carbon and so a low silicon content (<2.4%) is recommended for flame hardening. A porous and rough surface is generated after flame hardening when the iron contains a high total carbon with coarse graphite flakes. The flakes are burnt out during flame heating.
Because of their higher hardenability alloyed gray irons are better flame hardened with higher surface hardness and depth. Nickel, chromium, and molybdenum additions are often helpful for this purpose. An unalloyed iron containing 3% total carbon, 1.7% Si, 0.6–0.8% Mn develops a maximum hardness of 400–500 HB. In contrast, an average surface hardness of 550 HB can be developed with either 2.5% Ni and 0.5% Cr or 1–1.5% Ni and 0.25% Mo additions.
The surface hardness of flame hardened gray irons is slightly lower than that in the immediate below. This is due to the retention of soft austenite phase at the surface. The surface hardness can be increased by heating at 200–250 °C which also relieves the residual stresses.
The surface hardness of flame hardened gray irons is slightly lower than that in the immediate below. This is due to the retention of soft austenite phase at the surface. The surface hardness can be increased by heating at 200–250 °C which also relieves the residual stresses.
Induction hardening is more expensive than flame hardening but it is justified for large number components to be hardened. The hardening is carried out in the range of temperature of 870–925 °C for a short heating cycle. A minimum combined carbon as pearlite ranging from 0.4 to 0.5% is essential for successful hardening. The surface hardness is very much dependent on the carbon equivalent (i.e., %total carbon+%Si), higher the carbon equivalent, more graphite is present in the microstructure causing decrease in the hardness.
One would have to inquire WHICH hardening process was used and to what degree of hardening was achieved. Without knowing or asking, its like asking "how high is up?"......
BOB RENTON

 

[RemCharger]

But anyways, here's some actual cut+ paste on nitriding.
Nitriding - Wikipedia

 

[Photon440]

More info from Bob's post site: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/materials-science/surface-hardening

"Does having a cam hardened... I think it's called nitriding... Solve the problem for flat tablet camshafts?" But for the original question, cams should be hardened as part of the manufacturing process. There are different methods; Bob's post above deals with heating and chilling the surface. Nitriding promotes the induction of nitrogen into the steel. Another form of heat treating camshafts involves lasers.

 

[Kern Dog]

For awhile, Comp Cams offered a process they called Pro Plasma. This was supposed to be some treatment to harden the cam beyond the standard.

 

[RemCharger]

For awhile, Comp Cams offered a process they called Pro Plasma. This was supposed to be some treatment to harden the cam beyond the standard.

Yes it's one of 3 types of nitriding

 

[old guys rule]

It's not a simple solution. It depends. What's your open & closed valve spring pressure? Do the lifters have the proper profile on the bottom? Does the cam lobe have the proper taper? The cam core has to be a good one, not soft Chinese junk.

The lift is comparable to the Magnum cam but with shorter duration. Intake 252 at 6 and 260 exhaust at 6. I'll do proper break in. Lobes and lifters look as they should.

 

[Krooser]

Lower priced cast iron cores are induction hardened. Others are nitrided.

Most grinders parkerize their cams for a better break-in.

 

[RJRENTON]

Lower priced cast iron cores are induction hardened. Others are nitrided.

Most grinders parkerize their cams for a better break-in.

There is a distinct difference between parkerizeing and nitritriding

Parkerizing is a method of protecting a steel surface from corrosion and increasing its resistance to wear through the application of a chemical phosphate conversion coating.
nitriding, process for hardening the surface of steel objects by introducing nitrogen (N) into it, where it combines with iron and other alloying elements to form hard metallic nitrides.
One of the primary purposes of nitriding is to achieve a high hardness on the surface of a workpiece. This heat treatment technique can also increase the wear resistance of the workpiece, improve its fatigue life, and enhance its corrosion resistance.
The process produces surface hardening......just in a different mrthod
FYI.....
BOB RENTON

 

[beanhead]

Nitriding usually costs a few more bucks at purchase time (assuming you're ordering custom, or direct) but as a wise Mopar shaman once told me (starts with a D and ends with a Porter) anything you can do to hedge your odds against a failure these days is worth it...
Obviously it doesn't guarantee success (you still need to check everything and do things properly) but it helps. Many of the reported problems could actually end up being the lifters at that point.