First questions on my 727 rebuild journey

[AR67GTX]

After I measured clearances I did take the friction and steel plates and dip them in transmission fluid before buttoning things up. I think the pistons seated OK - I plan to air test them. Not sure at what stage I can do that - I would like to before I put the pump in but I guess I could test install the pump to check end play and test the clutch piston then. Seems odd there isn't a seal on the inner piston hub - I guess the tolerances are close enough the pressure compensates for the small amount of leakage.

I'll try to find some new steel rings - these were obviously too small so not much point going back to Makco. Guess I'll venture over to the local transmission parts house out south of town tomorrow - go during early daylight and take some weaponry with me.

Thanks

 

[miller]

Seems odd there isn't a seal on the inner piston hub -

I'd have to check in the book, but if it's a piston, should have a seal. I go by the seals I pulled off.

Maybe a little help. On the hook rings, one way that works for me is one hook up and over...putting the ring in the groove. Have to be careful not to bend the ring, sink one end/hook, and easing the other hook over, letting it slip into place.

Some of the piston seals that cannot be rotated into place, I use an o-ring 'tool' I made from 6" of brass brazing rod. By tapering and getting thin on one end, rounding the edge, smooth edges, makes a way to slip it in past the seal. All that's needed is getting the lip of the seal started, and it will go.
Patience and practice...

 

[AR67GTX]

These hook rings were just too small of diameter. I tied wire around them on the shaft and twisted it tight to seat them as deep into the groove as possible and the hooks were still about 1/16 inch from latching. Even if they would have engaged I think the ring would have been slightly recessed compared to the ring lands. The old ones have plenty of slack and are easy to remove and replace.

Possibly the gasket/seal kit had a ring kit for a later model or something by accident. I need to see how the others match the old ones.

 

[AR67GTX]

Well, of course your are correct - I missed the inner piston o-ring seals. One is on the cylinder and not obvious but I can't make excuses for missing the other one which is on the piston itself.

And the outer seal on the rear piston is a bit scuffed up from working it in with a feeler gage. I've done that before on brake seals but used a .020 blade which is pretty blunt. I didn't think it would fit this and used the .010 which was apparently too sharp on the edges.

And I seem to be lacking hook rings for the governor in the ring kit - so basically I'm done for now until I scrounge up more parts.

Found this place which stocks lots of individual seals, gaskets and bushings without having to buy a whole kit.

https://www.tsr-racing.com/

 

[miller]

Possibly the gasket/seal kit had a ring kit for a later model or something by accident. I need to see how the others match the old ones.

When they package up those overhaul kits, most of them cover a handful of years. That's where you get the extra, other parts...very common. I always get those extra parts, with the master kits I use.
Suppose it's too late now, mentioned laying out your parts, to keep track of 'em. That's how I've always done, by assembly in line, breaking down each assembly. Keeping the various parts 'together', including the seals/rings, to use the old parts for comparison.

I will bet one whole dollar...one of your local tranny shops will have extra small parts, that you can buy off them.
But, you have to know which small part. Year model of the trans might get you by. I've always held onto my old small parts, until new ones are in place. If those hook rings would not fit anyway...do you remember what kind you took off? That's what you need.

O-rings and rubber seals...yup...gotta be careful how their handled. Local shop!

 

[dvw]

Ok then. The small input shaft rings fit 66 and back. Yes both pistons have 2 seals. Once the seal rings are installed on the input shaft and stator support you can air check. Drill a hole in your bench that the input shaft/ stator support assy can drop thru. Install the front drum onto the rear clutch/ input shaft assy. Drop the pump assy down over it. Now flip it all over and drop the input though the hole in your bench. Find the holes in the outer portion of the pump that feed the 2 clutches. Air them up with a rubber tip blow gun. Both servos can also be checked once they're installed in the case. Your spring is on the way.
Doug

 

[AR67GTX]

Suppose it's too late now, mentioned laying out your parts, to keep track of 'em. That's how I've always done, by assembly in line, breaking down each assembly. Keeping the various parts 'together', including the seals/rings, to use the old parts for comparison.

That's pretty much what I'm doing. I left all the seals, rings, bushings, metal clad rings, etc on the parts when I cleaned them and I'm replacing them one by one as I'm matching them up. My pump still has the old perimeter seal and hub bushing still on it as I haven't gotten to it yet. I even temporarily reinstalled the hook rings I couldn't replace until I get some correct ones. All my small parts are bagged together by assembly - good old zip locks.

I was going to venture over into the hood to visit our one and only advertised trans part store but then I stumbled on TSR on Sunday while I was pretty much dead in the water and it looked like they had everything I needed individually and a few other things like Door Ease - that Carl's book recommended for easing seals into place so I went ahead and ordered everything. I also got one each of each piston seal as an extra just in case I run into problems getting a good seal. Didn't add up to much.

A couple days wait on delivery but probably better than a shoot out south of town and still being short something that I still had to order.

 

[AR67GTX]

Ok then. The small input shaft rings fit 66 and back. Your spring is on the way.
Doug

Thanks Doug - I do have a few other rings left in the kit but none are hook rings. Should the rings on both the input and the governor have hook ends?

 

[miller]

Sounds good! Especially for a first time around. But, that's how it's done...any port in the storm, right? And, wouldn't worry much about cut o-rings, and the like. That's happened to all of us. Live and learn. Mine is usually the hard way.

When I don't have any trans assembly lube, like for o-rings, try Vasoline...it works, and will easily mix with the fluid.

It can be a little frustrating to get some of those assemblies back together. Step back, and go again. Simple as that.

 

[miller]

Your trans a 69, or 67?

 

[AR67GTX]

Your trans a 69, or 67?

It's a 69 production code (383 HP & 440) but stamped with a July 1968 VIN. My car has a 68 440 in it and now I'm curious if the motor and transmission might actually be from the same car. When I get it down off the lift I'll see if I can find a VIN on the back of the motor.

 

[dvw]

Thanks Doug - I do have a few other rings left in the kit but none are hook rings. Should the rings on both the input and the governor have hook ends?

Not all governer rings lock. All input shaft and stator support steel rings lock.
Doug

 

[miller]

Doug appears to have played with these things, bunch more than me...no dispute...

So, I'll just ask. Did you pull hook rings off? Still have the old ones...what shape are they in? Or, other type of seal rings...that you might still have in the kit.
(Been over five years since I fooled with mine, and brain is fogged over!)

 

[AR67GTX]

Not all governer rings lock. All input shaft and stator support steel rings lock.
Doug

OK - well the locking rings on my governor may not be necessary or required. I'll see what TSR racing sends. I couldn't be sure if they were locking or not from the website.

 

[AR67GTX]

So, I'll just ask. Did you pull hook rings off? Still have the old ones...what shape are they in? Or, other type of seal rings...that you might still have in the kit.
(Been over five years since I fooled with mine, and brain is fogged over!)

I reinstalled the old ones for now on the governor and input. They were very easy to reinstall and hook. I have a few extra rings and there may be a non-locking set there at least for the governor. But I thought I better ask before I did that. I have another set coming for both - not sure if they are hooked or not for the governor - they are for the input.

 

[oldbee]

It's been a looong time, but I don't remember locking rings on the governor. I go with dvw.

 

[miller]

It's kinda along the lines why I don't like working on someone else's work. That one had been gone through, and hard to say if right parts were used. Not being critical, just saying.
At least to a point, rings are rings, no matter what the design. If a ring fits, gaps right, I'd put it to work. Parts suppliers should be able to get you the correct parts. Sounds like you have 'em on the way.

 

[AR67GTX]

Yes - lots of parts on the way. The pump bushing is becoming a saga all its own. The first one went in fine but somehow when staking it my punch must have slipped as it put a big divot into the race area. Ordered a replacement and it arrived oval and coming apart at the tab joint. Now they are sending a brass replacement for a 71 that has a dimpled surface to retain lubrication better and prevent seizing. They think it's a superior bushing and that it should fit a 68 pump - I figured it should but will have to see.

And last - in the time I removed the rubber o-ring from the front (Edit: I should have said REAR servo - not front) servo piston and started to put the new one on - I failed to notice which way the lip was facing. Carl's book says the lip is towards the big end of the piston but I think he misspoke. I think the lip faces into the bore (towards trans top side). Anyone care to weigh in on this?

 

[miller]

Since there are a couple different versions of the servo pistons, it depends on how the assembly goes into the bore. Understand it can be confusing...note, he's also saying the seal for the 'bottom' of the piston. So, look at which way the piston part goes into the bore. Good rule of thumb...lip of the seal goes towards the fluid.
Carl calling the bottom of the piston...is the direction it goes in. That's if I remember right. Is that the one, that takes a spring, and retainer after the piston?
Bet Doug can straighten my act up, if that's wrong.

 

[dvw]

Lip seal sharp edge always towards pressure. Make sure the joined edge of the pump bushing is 90 degrees to the stake area when installing. I use an old hinge pin with a rounded end to stake, doesn't take much. Trim off the high spot around the stake with a knife.
Doug