Starter relay fun

[patrick66]

New parts are garbage, for the most part!

With that said, I installed a new starter relay in my '66 Coronet a couple of months ago (Standard brand), because the old one had an internal short in it. It would only work when I jumped it at the terminals with a screwdriver. Worked fine for a few months, no starting issues at all! Until this weekend. I'd turn the key, and no starter noises or clicks at all, yet my "oil" light would come on, as it should, and I had power to everything. Jump the terminals, and the car starts right up. Awesome, another bad starter relay, fun! Here's the thing, though. It'll start 50/50 with the key. It's a bit of a crapshoot. And it doesn't matter if the car is started for the first time cold, or if I've been driving for a bit. The ignition switch tests good, and the neutral safety switch works, as well; using a volt/ohm meter. No frayed wires that I can detect. I have an old unit from a scrap Dart wiring harness I'm going to try. Any other ideas out there?

 

[RemCharger]

You say your NSS is good, and you have an ohm meter.
What kind of ohms do you get when probing the wire that goes to the NSS?

 

[patrick66]

I wrote all that down when I was troubleshooting, I'll have to look in the car where I left that info.

 

[dadsbee]

Next time it won't start... leave the key in the on position and take a wire from + battery and touch it to the + on the starter relay and see if it starts. Could be the run position on your key switch that's funky.

 

[PlymCrazy]

New parts are garbage, for the most part!

With that said, I installed a new starter relay in my '66 Coronet a couple of months ago (Standard brand), because the old one had an internal short in it. It would only work when I jumped it at the terminals with a screwdriver. Worked fine for a few months, no starting issues at all! Until this weekend. I'd turn the key, and no starter noises or clicks at all, yet my "oil" light would come on, as it should, and I had power to everything. Jump the terminals, and the car starts right up. Awesome, another bad starter relay, fun! Here's the thing, though. It'll start 50/50 with the key. It's a bit of a crapshoot. And it doesn't matter if the car is started for the first time cold, or if I've been driving for a bit. The ignition switch tests good, and the neutral safety switch works, as well; using a volt/ohm meter. No frayed wires that I can detect. I have an old unit from a scrap Dart wiring harness I'm going to try. Any other ideas out there?

You say the new one that you installed a couple of months ago is now working about 1/2 the time? This was the identical symptom I had with mine as it was failing. In fact, when I jumped it with a screwdriver it would work ok for a few starts and then fail again. Replaced the solenoid. Been good for 2 years now.

 

[patrick66]

I'll look at that, thanks.

 

[patrick66]

You say the new one that you installed a couple of months ago is now working about 1/2 the time? This was the identical symptom I had with mine as it was failing. In fact, when I jumped it with a screwdriver it would work ok for a few starts and then fail again. Replaced the solenoid. Been good for 2 years now.

And that, too! I've got an original (not NORS) solenoid laying about, as well.

 

[Don Frelier]

I had a new one where there was a rivet holding one terminal that wasn't swaged tightly enough.
You likely have the same problem.
Once again bad reproduction parts plague us.

 

[Fran Blacker]

If you want/need a NOS starter relay auto trans I have one $25 shipped. P/P F/F's.

 

[patrick66]

Might just do that!

 

[66Satellite47]

Old style starters can have weird things happen with the starter solenoid. A pain to deal with, but sometimes needed.

EDIT: I should have mentioned the solenoid contacts. They can act really funky before they weld themselves. Reworked 2 of my starters before getting a combo that lasted.

 

[kiwigtx]

Any other ideas out there?

May not be your problem, but many years ago when I was an apprentice, I also had trouble starting my '69 Charger. It turned out that the large contact inside the starter solenoid has been burnt on the edge where it makes contact with the copper face of the main power stud. Luckily, we had a Motor Rewinder in-house, and he was able to silver solder the contact face and large contact up for me. Never had any issues after that.

The constant arcing inside the starter does have an effect over time. The car had around 220,000 miles on it at the time, and had been through 21 owners.....another 6 or so since I sold it now from what I could find out a year or so ago. Seems that everyone wanted there 20 minutes of fun with the car, and either lost their licence, or ran out of money for gas.

That picture was taken about 40 years ago now.......and that location is a mere 300 yards from where I now live.

 

[patrick66]

If you want/need a NOS starter relay auto trans I have one $25 shipped. P/P F/F's.

I'll take that. PM me with your address and I can fire off a US Postal MO to you for that.

Currently, I've only had to jump the solenoid once since posting this thread; but an NOS solenoid would be the ticket over the crap we get at the auto parts emporium nowadays.

 

[RJRENTON]

May not be your problem, but many years ago when I was an apprentice, I also had trouble starting my '69 Charger. It turned out that the large contact inside the starter solenoid has been burnt on the edge where it makes contact with the copper face of the main power stud. Luckily, we had a Motor Rewinder in-house, and he was able to silver solder the contact face and large contact up for me. Never had any issues after that.

The constant arcing inside the starter does have an effect over time. The car had around 220,000 miles on it at the time, and had been through 21 owners.....another 6 or so since I sold it now from what I could find out a year or so ago. Seems that everyone wanted there 20 minutes of fun with the car, and either lost their licence, or ran out of money for gas.




View attachment 1349647

That picture was taken about 40 years ago now.......and that location is a mere 300 yards from where I now live.

To speak to your observation regarding the starter's internal contact, during cranking, especially when the engine is cold, the starter draws approximately 300-400 amps to provide the torque required to turn the engine (the starter is a series wound motor). When the engine starts and the key is released, de-energizing the start relay and in turn de-energizing the solenoid, the internal contacts open, but due to the high current being interrupted, an arc occurs. But due to the space limitations, there is no arc extinguishing device. All high current DC control devices, such as DC crane control schemes, have arc chutes and blowout coils to magnetically control contract arcing and erosion. Without arc control, current carrying conductors life expectancy is reduced, both in the stationary and moving contacts. The "mini" starters use permanent magnets for fields, rather than wound copper coils, reducing internal losses so all current goes to the motors armature, reducing overall current losses promoting more torque to turn the enginengine. Just talking out loud......
BOB RENTON

 

[66Satellite47]

To speak to your observation regarding the starter's internal contact, during cranking, especially when the engine is cold, the starter draws approximately 300-400 amps to provide the torque required to turn the engine (the starter is a series wound motor). When the engine starts and the key is released, de-energizing the start relay and in turn de-energizing the solenoid, the internal contacts open, but due to the high current being interrupted, an arc occurs. But due to the space limitations, there is no arc extinguishing device. All high current DC control devices, such as DC crane control schemes, have arc chutes and blowout coils to magnetically control contract arcing and erosion. Without arc control, current carrying conductors life expectancy is reduced, both in the stationary and moving contacts. The "mini" starters use permanent magnets for fields, rather than wound copper coils, reducing internal losses so all current goes to the motors armature, reducing overall current losses promoting more torque to turn the enginengine. Just talking out loud......
BOB RENTON

Had two starters fail on my '70 Barracuda 383 in the early' 70's. Those were some really cold winters in Minnesota and my car sat outside all the time. Welded the solenoid contacts a couple times. I had the FSM so I learned how to fix them. The contact kit was readily available at my local dealer.
And those solenoid issues did make the starter relay act weird.

 

[RJRENTON]

Had two starters fail on my '70 Barracuda 383 in the early' 70's. Those were some really cold winters in Minnesota and my car sat outside all the time. Welded the solenoid contacts a couple times. I had the FSM so I learned how to fix them. The contact kit was readily available at my local dealer.
And those solenoid issues did make the starter relay act weird.

Years ago, I worked for a company that made electrical contacts for the industry. They used 99.9999% pure silver powder combined with pure tungsten powder to make very conductive but relatively immune to erosion due to arcing. This process is called powdered metallurgy. To make lower cost items, copper was substituted for silver and tungsten percentage was reduced. To reduce cost furthur, lower alloy copper and no tungsten was used. This is what is in the starter solenoid moving contact....the one activated by the internal solenoid....basically a copper disc. The two stationary contacts are cold headed copper alloy....approximately 80% copper and a 20% beryllium alloy to make them hard. But over time, they will deteriorate due to arc erosion. They last a "reasonable length of time".....but nothing lasts forever.....except taxes.... Just thought you might like to know......
BOB RENTON