Muscle car....?????

[Budnicks]

Love the Great Tiger Exterminator pitch
(& I like Pontiacs)

 

[Cojohnso1]

Minus the badge, the goat was a Lemans/Tempest 2-door or vert body. The ‘Sport Fury’ only came in a 2-door and vert..

Doesn't matter. Its the model. Not the base platform.

And every rule has exceptions.

 

[chargervert]

What differs? Savoy, Polara, Dart. ect had family car options. Like 4 door. 6 cylinder ect. GTO did not. It was Muscle or bust.

Yes, this topic is very argumentative. The term "Muscle Car" wasn't used until later in the production's run.

IMO. GTO was the first Muscle car.

The GTO was a Tempest/Lemans which had all of the above,including a station wagon! The GTO was marketing what Chrysler already did two years before,with real scoops not fake simulated ones.

 

[Photon440]

Doesn't matter. Its the model. Not the base platform.

And every rule has exceptions.

The GTO was merely an option package on the LeMans for 1964 and 1965. It wasn't it's own separate model until 1966. Just like the GTO option was only two doors, the 1962 Sport Fury option was only two doors with a V8.

 

[ct71rr]

This is so bleedin fantastic! And look!... not a 'helmet', or knee pads ner nuthin in sight... Aaaahhhh... those were the days.

And no shoes!! "Precision engineered" ... oh, you mean roller skate wheels attached to a chrome plated bar?!

 

[Cojohnso1]

The GTO was merely an option package on the LeMans for 1964 and 1965. It wasn't it's own separate model until 1966. Just like the GTO option was only two doors, the 1962 Sport Fury option was only two doors with a V8.

Like I said. There are exceptions. As well as discrepancies. Technically Sport Fury was it's own model. Thus could arguably be the first true muscle car. Being it does check the boxes for '62-'64. But then went full size C Body in '65. And for that? Falls out of consideration. IMO.

 

[Pops1967GTX]

The Evolution Of The Muscle Car

Interesting read

 

[33 IMP]

I have NOT read six pages of old thread, but.....
If I define a muscle car as the lightest body, with the biggest motor, tuned for more horsepower with multiple carbs.....

The first musclecar is a 1938 Buick Century, with a twin carb roadmaster engine.

Let the flaming begin.....

 

[chargervert]

I have NOT read six pages of old thread, but.....
If I define a muscle car as the lightest body, with the biggest motor, tuned for more horsepower with multiple carbs.....

The first musclecar is a 1938 Buick Century, with a twin carb roadmaster engine.

Let the flaming begin.....

Some claim the 55 Chrysler 300,some claim the 49 Olds 88!

 

[chargervert]

Like I said. There are exceptions. As well as discrepancies. Technically Sport Fury was it's own model. Thus could arguably be the first true muscle car. Being it does check the boxes for '62-'64. But then went full size C Body in '65. And for that? Falls out of consideration. IMO.

425 HP dual quad,that ran 11 seconds in 1963 never goes out of consideration! Nobody else was doing that,Ford raised the bar at the end of 64,then Chrysler unleashed the Hemi AFX cars in 65 and the rest is history to this very day. No matter what brands decal they put on the car.it is still Chryslers Hemi design winning the race!

 

[33 IMP]

Some claim the 55 Chrysler 300,some claim the 49 Olds 88!

The 55 300 was fast, but in a big heavy body. The Dodge D501 or Plymouth Fury from 57 might have a better claim (light car, big hp motor)
And other than a corvette, the Rambler Rebel was the fasted car available in 57. (First large block engine, in an intermediate sized car, the 327 ambassador engine)

 

[33 IMP]

D-501 was an amazing car! Only 56 built, it arrived in April, was outlawed in May. Lightest 2dr sedan Dodge body, with the 355hp 354 hemi from the 56 300, with heads that gave an extrapoint of compression over the 300. Dodge rated it at 340hp (already messing with horsepower ratings in 57! Probably should have been rated at 370). All heavy duty police drivetrain and suspension pieces.Factory supercar in1957.

 

[Cojohnso1]

Some claim the 55 Chrysler 300,some claim the 49 Olds 88!

I've heard the '49 Olds 88 argument.

We are certainly never going to win every point of view here in a Mopar chat site.

 

[Ron H]

To belabor the mindset on this, just mine, the belated definition of muscle cars – The GTO is a muscle car, no doubt. However, it being labeled as the FIRST one (based on the further definition of Pontiac Motor Division being so bold-so-innovative to install a big motor in a mid-size car) is HS. By the time the goat arrived, mid-size Dodges & Plymouths were already burning up the tracks nearly two-years before it came off the assembly line. As for special badging, consider that the Sport Fury was only available as a two-door or vert – just like the GTO. Lol, anyone have a kicking a dead horse meme to add?

 

[Budnicks]

"Muscle Cars, are a Midsize car, mandatory 2 dr"
HT or a Post Coupe even Sport Roof like the Torino or GT
some accepted/arbitrary nomenclature as
Super Cars or Tuned Super Cars/Tuners,
The likes of Baldwin Motion, Nickey, Bobcat, Yenko, Mr. Norms

The smaller cars were
or compact cars even in the standards of that era, what many were called
Pony cars
like Mustang, Fairlane, Maverick, even 'cuda/Barracuda, Challenger, Camaro, Nova
or are Sports cars
like Corvette, Cobra, Pantera, later even Vipers
they were not defined as muscle cars

Bigger cars were Full Size cars, yes performance oriented maybe
like the 61 409 Impala or 406 or 427 Galaxies or the Big Pontiacs etc.
but not muscle cars, not by definition
no matter how much people argue it, it just wasn't that way
I know, not out here anyway, maybe back east, but not out west

Next qualifier to be a muscle car
a Big Block & min. of 300+ hp,
a min. of a single 4bbl (acceptable 3x2bbls or 2x4bbls)
w/dual exhaust
many where 4 speeds but not all (not mandatory)
many had bucket seat & consoles shifters on the floor too (not mandatory)
many of the best had bench seats & column shifters/autos too
most were all affordable youth market cars
sort of stripped down less amenities/luxuries & lighter
down market models
less expensive models, with performance additions,
$2500-$4500-ish
marketed to the youth/Boomers coming of age in
(maybe 50's is questionable as definitions goes)
it's mostly recognized as 60's cars like
(Max Wedge/Ramcharger Super Stock, arguably the 1st)
61 ? to 62 to early 72-73, it was over until like 2004-5

 

[33 IMP]

Small quibble, Budnicks. A fairlane with 390 or 427 was a muscle car (even if the 390 was a dog! I think the 271 horse 289s were quicker) , so was a Nova with a 396, and a Maverick never was any kind of muscle, even with the 302. 2bbl, which was the fastest option. And it seems to be that the ponycar descriptor has gone away, tho you are correct as to its usage. I don't know what the new versions of mustangs, camaros, and challengers are called.

 

[Pops1967GTX]

https://i.etsystatic.com/5596663/r/il/36949d/4283837015/il_794xN.4283837015_ia14.jpg

https://i0.wp.com/www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/wi-11.jpg?ssl=1

https://i0.wp.com/www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/wi-7.jpg?ssl=1

How about the Super Cat…
1964 Buick Wildcat is "The Super Cat" special-ordered, 425ci dual-quad engine.

 

[chargervert]

https://i.etsystatic.com/5596663/r/il/36949d/4283837015/il_794xN.4283837015_ia14.jpg

https://i0.wp.com/www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/wi-11.jpg?ssl=1

https://i0.wp.com/www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/wi-7.jpg?ssl=1

How about the Super Cat…
1964 Buick Wildcat is "The Super Cat" special-ordered, 425ci dual-quad engine.

Probably not a bigger car on the planet! If Buick would have pit that engine in a 64 Skylark that would have been a muscle car by definition.

 

[Pops1967GTX]

I have NOT read six pages of old thread, but.....
If I define a muscle car as the lightest body, with the biggest motor, tuned for more horsepower with multiple carbs.....

The first musclecar is a 1938 Buick Century, with a twin carb roadmaster engine.

Let the flaming begin.....

Well here’s a short breakdown as per Mona……

"Cause Chevy didn't make a 327 in '55, the 327 didn't come out till '62. And it wasn't offered in the Bel Air with a four-barrel carb till '64. However, in 1964, the correct ignition timing would be four degrees before top-dead-center." ~ Mona Lisa Vito

 

[moparsaver]

Well here’s a short breakdown as per Mona……

"Cause Chevy didn't make a 327 in '55, the 327 didn't come out till '62. And it wasn't offered in the Bel Air with a four-barrel carb till '64. However, in 1964, the correct ignition timing would be four degrees before top-dead-center." ~ Mona Lisa Vito