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When is Road Runner no longer a Road Runner

Anyone who snubs a "clone" is a dumb arse to begin with, and how do clones kill the value on original cars? What's the matter with taking a /6 or 318 and building it the way you want to build it? The only time it becomes a problem is when VIN swaps are involved. We have an A12 clone that we make no bones about telling people was an original 383 4 speed Super Bee. Who the he11 cares! We'll never be looking to sell it, plus I have no qualms about driving it 50 miles on city roads and highways to a show, or just to drive it. Obviously I'm biased, but I think us clone owners should be praised, because without us, how many Hemi such and such and 6-Pack such and such would you see at shows if only original factory cars were allowed? There, now I'm done venting!
 
I love my clone and drive the hell out of it . I chased real superbirds and prices for years and could never afford one . Just as i would save up enough money to buy one , then they would have just jumped in price . So i found real superbird parts and built my own . I have real road runners and chargers , but the superbird clone is my dream car and my most prized possesion . MY 2 cents

ians dadc.jpg
 
Let's look outside the box, there are more 32 fords out there than Henry built, but just try get your hands on one for cheep. They are the most desired pre WW II car. And A big reason for it is cloning. And most of them are not real Fords. So did they become more popular because they were more plentyful ? And A real deal 32 is still threw the roof.
 
I have to agree with you on the 32 Ford, this is more than likely where it all started. These cars have a following.
Next in line was the 40 Ford Coupe followed by the 49-50 Mercury which were lowered and chopped and they were soon turned into "Rat Rods".

Rat Rods: A mixture of various parts by various venders and manafactures to modify or build a personlized car.
 
50 Mercs are rat rods?
You paint with mighty broad strokes there amigo.
But then, based on your previous post, they aren't bone stock original cars, so you don't care or know about them through your soup can view of the automotive world.
 
There are several kit bodies out there for 32 Fords and far more for AC Cobras. The prices for these kits vary from kit to kit but even more so with the quality of the build and for the street rod the latest tech, whistles and bells make a difference. With the Cobras the values go up the closer it is to an original with drivetrains etc. As with all the ORIGINALS still bring much more than these kit cars even though a good fresh 32 can bring $80K.
 
my road runner has fenders and trunk lid from a 69 sattelite,and seats from a superbee,but,its still my road runner.
 
My cousin took a regular camaro and made into a Yenko. It has a correct 427 and transmission,12 bolt rear end, all the correct interior and all the marking like the originals.
When asked if it really a Yenko, he just tell them "can you tell the difference?"

Since only 171 or so were original built. Good luck getting your hands on one.

My Coronet 500 going to turned into a R/T. Everything from the 440 engine, 727 transmission, Dana 60, and interior and exterior is going to be the same as the factory did. So "yes I will say it a 500 made into a R/T.

It not like I'm running a 318 with R/T badging. That's known as posing.

It like a data plate that says it came with a hemi 4 speed and Dana 60 but now has a 383 or 440 w/ automatic, and 8 3/4 rear end in it. Is that car still considered a hemi car?
 
My cousin took a regular camaro and made into a Yenko. It has a correct 427 and transmission,12 bolt rear end, all the correct interior and all the marking like the originals.
When asked if it really a Yenko, he just tell them "can you tell the difference?"

Since only 171 or so were original built. Good luck getting your hands on one.

My Coronet 500 going to turned into a R/T. Everything from the 440 engine, 727 transmission, Dana 60, and interior and exterior is going to be the same as the factory did. So "yes I will say it a 500 made into a R/T.

It not like I'm running a 318 with R/T badging. That's known as posing.

It like a data plate that says it came with a hemi 4 speed and Dana 60 but now has a 383 or 440 w/ automatic, and 8 3/4 rear end in it. Is that car still considered a hemi car?[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is still a Hemi CAR minus it's original drive train.
 
No, It use to be a Hemi Car.
A tag that has number and letters on it is nothing more then a meaningless piece of metal if it doesn't have what is written on it.

It no different than if Someone's bought their wife a big ole' diamond ring (Hemi Road runner) and diamond (hemi) fell off and is now long gone, never to be found.

Now all she has left is a gold band.(Road runner)
Is it still a diamond ring (Hemi Road Runner)even though the diamond (Hemi) is gone?

According to your logic you have the paperwork and reciepts where it was purchased as a diamond ring. (Hemi Road Runner) but in REALITY you have nothing more then just a Ring (Road Runner)

:icon_scratch:

I Bolded just for you 696pack since you like that feature so much.
 
No, It use to be a Hemi Car.
A tag that has number and letters on it is nothing more then a meaningless piece of metal if it doesn't have what is written on it.

It no different than if Someone's bought their wife a big ole' diamond ring (Hemi Road runner) and diamond (hemi) fell off and is now long gone, never to be found.

Now all she has left is a gold band.(Road runner)
Is it still a diamond ring (Hemi Road Runner)even though the diamond (Hemi) is gone?

According to your logic you have the paperwork and reciepts where it was purchased as a diamond ring. (Hemi Road Runner) but in REALITY you have nothing more then just a Ring (Road Runner)

:icon_scratch:

I Bolded just for you 696pack since you like that feature so much.

First of all, when I bold something from a post I am picking up as a "quote" I am doing so to bring attention to the portion of the quote that I am responding to.
Second, You analogy is not a good example. The diamond ring was not created and stamped as a "diamond ring" as a whole. It in fact is a ring that has a diamond in it. The difference with the Hemi car is that the factory that made it indicated it as a Hemi built car on both the V.I.N. and the fender tag. Furthermore, there are other differences between an originally factory built Hemi car that are tell tale signs of how it was built.

If you don't think there is a HUGH difference between an original factory built Hemi car without it's original drive train, as identified as per the above V.I.N. and fender tag, then just try to buy one for that same money as a like model car with a /6, 318, or 383 without it's drivetrain. Hell, for that matter if the like model still has it's drive train the Hemi shell will sell for more money.
 
"Hell, for that matter if the like model still has it's drive train the Hemi shell will sell for more money."

Yea, like hot cakes around here.

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?t=13913

You might know this one.

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?t=12984


Your beginning to sound a little sarcastic.

Running this discussion into other areas does nothing to support your original arguement. The example car you used with a Hemi car missing it's original drive train is no longer a Hemi car.

My car is not relivent to the discussion you and I are having here as mine is a complete car.

69runner's car is a perfect example of it STILL being a Hemi car that is missing it's drive train. Even though it has not yet sold, it is evident that others here recognize it's value based on people that would LIKE to buy it but can't afford it at this time. It is easy to see that an original Hemi car minus drive train commands a much higher price than the garden varity same B body with a /6, 318, or 383. If you think otherwise you are in the wrong hobby.

Maybe you are one of the "head in the clouds" people that thinks you will be able to buy an original Hemi car without drivetrain for the same money as any other like year/model car. If that is the case keep dreaming unless you stumble upon on one that the owner has no idea of what they have, in which case you better jump on it quick before someone else discovers it because I will guarantee that anyone with 1/2 a brain will recognize it as a smoking deal.
 
Anyone ever see the A990 Hemi Belvedere THE TEXAS RATTLER, tell me how that can be a real car. Theres not 1 single original part on that car.
 

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Anyone ever see the A990 Hemi Belvedere THE TEXAS RATTLER, tell me how that can be a real car. Theres not 1 single original part on that car.

Probably the same way the Sox & Martin Cuda is considered a real car. From what I have read lately the car was a body in white rebody. Likely put into a wall destroying the body and Mopar provided a body in white and swapped over the drivetrain to continue campaigning the car. When this came up on another site the Mopar Nazis didn't say a word. I guess if it was a famous car and some of the Nazis are involved in brokering the car it's OK if it is a rebody.:bootyshake:

I don't know about the car you are questioning but it may have been a car that was rebodied with original tags, as most of these old racers have little of their original componants anyway as they have been updated over the years to stay competitive over their life of racing.
 
Probably the same way the Sox & Martin Cuda is considered a real car. From what I have read lately the car was a body in white rebody. Likely put into a wall destroying the body and Mopar provided a body in white and swapped over the drivetrain to continue campaigning the car. When this came up on another site the Mopar Nazis didn't say a word. I guess if it was a famous car and some of the Nazis are involved in brokering the car it's OK if it is a rebody.:bootyshake:

I don't know about the car you are questioning but it may have been a car that was rebodied with original tags, as most of these old racers have little of their original componants anyway as they have been updated over the years to stay competitive over their life of racing.


They had the complete restoration documented and photographed. From when they found it to the total restoration.
They didn't hide anything and for the looks of the restoration, there wasn't much left of the Texas Rattler.
I wish I could find the restoration process on it. I'll look.
 

THIS IS IN TWO POSTS AS IT IS TOO LONG TO FIT IN ONE DUE TO CHARACTER LIMITS PER POST.

Well, I hope you can follow my train of thought on this as I ramble on to try and answer you question regarding "my thoughts" on this. I will bold some areas that seem to stand out regarding all of this.

This is part of the very subject that has been discussed for years regarding what is considered "right or wrong" depending on which camp you agree with. The first few pages of this very thread are the latest in this subject on this site. If you haven't read it you may want to start back at the beginning with regards to what some people seem to believe on the subject.

After reading the entire link you posted, it seems apparent that per the below copy and pastes from that link, that the "experts" seem to think that all is kosher with this particular "resto" or whatever you want to call it.

During the two year restoration process, I had been very greatly aided by Jim Schild, author of the "Authenticity Guide - 1965 Dodge and Plymouth Hemi Super Stock" books. Jim's consultation and research were invaluable in finessing the small details of the restoration and I was eager to get his impressions of the car after personally inspecting it when I arrived at the show. At the time, I remember him saying "this may be the best restored 1965 R0 Hemi in the country".


Regarding the below copy and paste about the "numbers" from the pictures of what this guy started with to "restore" obviously the the radiator core support was gone. I can't really see how much of the rear package tray is left un-cut and this is where the other hidden number for the S.O. number would be so we really don't know it that still exists. With this in mind, that only leaves the V.I.N. plate as possibly the only remaining original number for the original car. Now I am not making any accusations, but it would be impossible to tell if the end result of the "restored" car was the original "chunk" of the original car.

As a retired Senior Vice President at Chrysler, Mr. Davis spent untold hours going through the archived production records to compile (among other important memos, bulletins and correspondence) a list of the sequential VIN numbers, the receiving sales zones, receiving dealer code numbers, paint color codes and quantities of each , shipping dates and option codes for these cars. Largely because of Davis' work, there is now a list of VINs that match up to the Sales Order numbers (with the additional code numbers) that are stamped in the secret places on the body, now making it virtually impossible to "fake" a car that does not have all the original numbers. Fraudulent attempts to deceive a potential owner with a "clone", or "tribute" car are now impossible.
 
BTW, the Ferris Motors car on the cover of the Maximum Performance book by Jim Schild is the dealer that I refer to in this link: http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?p=112078#post112078
His dealership was one block down the street from the Dodge dealership I worked for from 12968-1974.

I wrote the following quite some time ago trying to be un-bias for both sides of the argument you may have read it before but if not pay special attention to the "catch 22" portion of it as it is VERY relative to your question about this car.

FOR THE PEOPLE THAT BELIEVE REBODYING IS WRONG

Many people in the hobby feel that there is a big difference in the way people "restore" a car, ESPECIALLY a unibody.

They believe that the unibody is the core or soul of the car.

They believe that when the car was created by the manufacturer, that the numbers that were assigned to that particular unibody, and the assortment of parts that were assigned to and installed on it to create the model they were disignating are sacred. That no one else outside of the manufacturer has the right to do a V.I.N. switch (which did happen when these cars were new before they ever left the final assembly line) on any of these cars for any reason.

They believe that IF the car is what they consider to be salvagable by repairing existing body parts or installing new, reproduction, or good used parts, that is the only legal/ethical way to restore the car and maintain the heritage/originality of the car that the original manufacturer built.

They feel that when a car is rusted/damaged to the point that there is little left of the original unibody that the car should be scrapped and taken out of existence.

They believe this is not just a matter of legalities but also a matter of ethics.

They believe that even if it IS legal on a Federal level and in many States, that it is still unethical and morally wrong.

They feel that restoration by rebody is NOT a restoration at all but rather a fraud created on the hobby and any line of ownership after the rebody takes place.

They feel that even when disclosure is made by the party that did the rebody, to the next person that purchases the car, that it is still unacceptable. They feel that it is all to likely that somewhere down the line in years to come with the ownership changes of the car that this will NOT be disclosed to future buyers.

Many are adamant about their belief that switching V.I.N. tags to another similar car/unibody and associated hidden I.D. numbers is just plain wrong, legal or not. Regardless of how CORRECT the car may appear, with all of the correct componants that the factory would have installed on a like unibody, it is not the same as when the factory did it, and that THEY (the original manufacturer) are the only ones that had the right to do so.

They consider all rebodies to be nothing more than a clone with the identity numbers from another car.

They believe that a registry of any KNOWN rebodies and any SUSPECTED rebodied should be kept for any future buyers to be aware of to aid in their buying decision.

Before we go to the other side of the arguement, the below information needs to be considered.



THE CATCH 22

Most feel the real problem is that there is no definition of where the line is with regards to the restoration of a unibody car.

At what point does the car cross the line from what has been described above as a restoration rather than a rebody?

How much of the original unibody has to be left for new, reproduction, or good used parts to be attached to?

How big of a CHUNK of a donor car can you use in this restoration before it is considered a rebody?

Does the simple act of removing the V.I.N. plate from one car or part of the car constitute a rebody?

What about removing the V.I.N. plate because the part of the car that it is attached to is damaged? Does this constitute a rebody?

Does a car that was front or rear "clipped" by a bodyshop 30+ years ago constitute a partial rebody?

If a car was first FRONT clipped and a year later REAR clipped, does this constitute a complete rebody?

All good questions with no answers that probably any two people will agree on.

This is why so many people have mixed feeling about the restoration/rebody arguement.



FOR THE PEOPLE THAT BELIEVE THAT A REBODY IS AN ACCEPTABLE FORM OF RESTORATION

These people do not believe the car or unibody has a soul, or that the car is sacred. They do not hold the manufacturer in a Godly manner and assume that none of the factory line workers were any kind of Saints.

They believe that the base unibody is the same for a given car line (e.g. "A", "B", "C", or "E" body) and it is just an assembly of parts added to this base unibody that creates the particular price class. These are terms that Chrysler created for their cars.

These people believe that IF the manufacturer had the right to switch V.I.N.s of a car that they built, that an individual has the same right, provided that they legally own both cars involved in the rebody.

The manufacturer did this in the interest of "saving" a car, rather than scrapping it, for purely financial reasons. If they mistakenly built a car that somehow did not meet the criteria of what the V.I.N. model designation indicated, they took the path of least cost to convert it to a different model and made a V.I.N. plate switch that reflected that. Did you ever wonder why the HIDDEN V.I.N. numbers don't have the FULL V.I.N. stamped in them? It left flexability for the manufacturer to make V.I.N./model changes when the car was near completion.

The people that believe in rebodying, do so for the same reason, because it is financially less costly.

These people also sometimes do so in the interest of safety when they have a car that they want to save that may have serious body deformation or serious rust problems in the unibody.

These people believe that they are also saving the heritage of the car by doing so.

These people feel that it is better to have a donor car that is as the factory built, and without damage, to transplant the parts that were factory installed specific parts that made up the identity of the car they want to save.

They believe that it is legal on a Federal level and cite the Federal Law from the Cornell University Law Library in the link below as their proof.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I.html


These people argue that in a State that considers rebodying a car is illegal, don't think that State law would hold up against an appeal to a higher court.

They believe it would be pretty obvious that if a State court ruled it illegal when the person that did it OWNED both cars legally, the defending party would arguing "intent," indicating that if the State law was upheld in this case, that it would be appealed to a Federal court. With this information in front of a judge (who is certainly smart enough to understand the "intent" of the law was to thwart chop shops) would rule in favor of the person who did the rebody. It would certainly be overturned in a Federal court. Not to mention, it would have to PROVEN that the rebody was DONE in the a State that it was against State law, and have an eye witness that actually saw the numbers switch take place in order to "prove" that the seller actually did it. It probably would not even get to trial and would be thrown out at the initial hearing. Court systems are overloaded throughout the US with trials that are far more important that someone doing a restoration (rebody) of a car that involves a donor car that the parts could have been switched in either direction. The whole thing is way too subjective with regards to where the line is, as indicated in the CATCH 22 section above.

They believe what you are talking about here would be a criminal suite, not a civil action. Anybody can sue someone and get a trail for a civil suite, but it is a whole other story when you are talking a criminal action.

These people believe that the people on the other side of this controversial subject, do their best to impact the value of a rebodied car in a derrogatory manner. This leads to it NOT being disclosed in most cases and will continue to be the case until such time that these cars are not looked down upon by some, but not all, in the hobby.
 
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