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Bergman PS box (Borgeson) and Lares PS box on a 66 Hemi?

AR67GTX

AR67GTX

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Since my post on S&G Sport feel boxes wasn’t getting much response and their phone was busy when I called, I started browsing through threads and reading up on the Lares and Bergman boxes and have a couple of questions.

Has anyone installed a Bergman (Borgeson) box on a stock 66 Hemi with TRW pump and stock hoses? In other words do the hose connections clear the stock manifolds or require an adaptor? Does the box accept the 5/8” return?

On the Lares 11033 “new manufacture” box I’m not finding much feedback on steering effort, and center feel. I assume since it’s very similar to the stock box it would clear a Hemi manifold with a 90 degree fitting on the pressure line? Is it a 15.7:1 box? Based on the following it looks like it might not be recommended for a 66 and earlier and at the bottom it seems to promote a Firm Feel box? Edit: Looks like the fast ratio box is 11043.

Lares Catalog
 
Last edited:
Ive no reply to your question. Mine was converted to power steering many years ago.

Its a stock B body box, . And he used the Saginaw pump and hoses for 67 or later ( easier to find parts for )

I have no complaints
 
I’ve already got the early 60s TRW pump, brackets, hoses, fittings and pulleys, and shaft so I’m what you might call committed to a basically stock set up. But if Bergman has a box that bolts right in and hooks up I’ll consider it. It sounds like they have a coupler that works on a standard PS column shaft.

Thanks
 
My issue for the Bergman box is it doesn't look like a Mopar box, Same goes for a Lares.
 
Heard from Peter. Sounds like it could be a little problematic with the TRW pump and not enough pressure. Complicating that is the Hemi only has a 5-1/2” crank pulley - I aasume to prevent over speeding the alternator and power steering and water pump at high rpm. He said Hemi pulleys were never available with Saginaw pumps and that might pose a problem at low speed. I guess he normally recommends a Saginaw pump if I understood him correctly and I don’t think it fits an Hemi. And you can’t easily use RB (non-Hemi) pulleys with the Hemi balancer. He knows his Mopars.

So, for this occasional cruiser I’ll probably go with some sort of OEM box and not take a chance. Sounds like there is a bit of favoritism leaning to Firm Feel over Steer and Gear. I’ll probably stick with a level 2 or Modern level to avoid the numb center position transitioning to heavy resistance on either side with the level 3 box that Kern Dog referenced in one of his posts.
 
Mine is a Saginaw pump from a big block ( year unknown )
But mine uses an aftermkt balancer so I have a typical B/RB pulley setup
 
Yeah - the balancer is why it normally doesn’t fit a 66/67 Hemi.
 
I have a new borgeson steering gear and lares power steering pump. Drives great.
 
Since it looks like you'll stay with an oe box, check in with Redhead out of Washington state. Another rebuilder, like Firm Feel and Steer and Gear, who do a proper job of actually rebuilding the unit. Unlike parts stores and many other outlets where, if you're lucky, the reman company they source from will replace a seal, repaint it and call it "rebuilt".
 
AR67GTX said:
Heard from Peter. Sounds like it could be a little problematic with the TRW pump and not enough pressure. Complicating that is the Hemi only has a 5-1/2” crank pulley - I aasume to prevent over speeding the alternator and power steering and water pump at high rpm. He said Hemi pulleys were never available with Saginaw pumps and that might pose a problem at low speed. I guess he normally recommends a Saginaw pump if I understood him correctly and I don’t think it fits an Hemi. And you can’t easily use RB (non-Hemi) pulleys with the Hemi balancer. He knows his Mopars.

So, for this occasional cruiser I’ll probably go with some sort of OEM box and not take a chance. Sounds like there is a bit of favoritism leaning to Firm Feel over Steer and Gear. I’ll probably stick with a level 2 or Modern level to avoid the numb center position transitioning to heavy resistance on either side with the level 3 box that Kern Dog referenced in one of his posts.
Click to expand...
I ran a stage 2 Firm Feel box for years and while it definitely improved the steering feel with more weight around most of the turning circumference, between 11 and 1 o'clock it was still dead. You may be able to live with that, but with the Firm Feel box I recommend the Stage 1 (cop car) feel, which is one up from stock. If you swap your 16" steering wheel to a 15" or 14" you should notice that middle dead zone even less. I now run a Borgeson box in my car and the dead center zone is gone.
 
AR67GTX said:
Since my post on S&G Sport feel boxes wasn’t getting much response and their phone was busy when I called, I started browsing through threads and reading up on the Lares and Bergman boxes and have a couple of questions.

Has anyone installed a Bergman (Borgeson) box on a stock 66 Hemi with TRW pump and stock hoses? In other words do the hose connections clear the stock manifolds or require an adaptor? Does the box accept the 5/8” return?

On the Lares 11033 “new manufacture” box I’m not finding much feedback on steering effort, and center feel. I assume since it’s very similar to the stock box it would clear a Hemi manifold with a 90 degree fitting on the pressure line? Is it a 15.7:1 box? Based on the following it looks like it might not be recommended for a 66 and earlier and at the bottom it seems to promote a Firm Feel box? Edit: Looks like the fast ratio box is 11043.

Lares Catalog
Click to expand...
I just installed the Lares 11033 in my 67 Charger. I can tell you right off the bat, I can tell there is less play in the wheel just by moving it back and forth. I'm going to bleed it today and try to take it for a ride.
 
When did the Lares 11033 start to be offered? This thread is the first I'm hearing of it. We've got remanufactured stock boxes from Firm Feel and Steer and Gear with different firmness levels (still have the center slop though), the Borgeson box that is a repurposed Jeep box (smaller, firmer than stock mopar B body, but not too firm, no center slop), and now the Lares 11033.

@chrger1967 and @ckessel, please let us know more about the Lares 11033 overall box size, steering effort, and center slop compared to the stock box. Also, who did you buy the Lares from and how was the tech support?
 
68 Sport Satellite said:
When did the Lares 11033 start to be offered? This thread is the first I'm hearing of it. We've got remanufactured stock boxes from Firm Feel and Steer and Gear with different firmness levels (still have the center slop though), the Borgeson box that is a repurposed Jeep box (smaller, firmer than stock mopar B body, but not too firm, no center slop), and now the Lares 11033.

@chrger1967 and @ckessel, please let us know more about the Lares 11033 overall box size, steering effort, and center slop compared to the stock box. Also, who did you buy the Lares from and how was the tech support?
Click to expand...
I bought it from Rock auto. Cheapest price I could find. Came quick to. I felt the difference as soon as I put the box in, there was a few inches of slop in the steering wheel, now there’s none.
 
What he said.
It's more effort than what I took out. Over powered oe stuff. Additionally, I replaced all of the steering and suspension components, so there is most likely some additional effort just from that. The effort is less than the r&p unit in my 04 Cummins dually, but that doesn't help you most likely. The tech lady was beyond helpful. I asked her about fitment of the unit, especially pertaining to headers. She said if you have stock exhaust, you're fine. Headers, you're on your own. I have Hedman's on the wagon, installed by PO. #3 and #5 had to get thumped. 3 for the box, 5 for the coupler. I also put in a new pump from them which worked out as I had to drop the box in from the top. Took the battery and tray/braces out, pump out, #1 plug out. Pulled the motor mount through bolt on the left side, put a screw jack under the pan rail to tilt it up a little, bingo. From below, no way unless I removed the header. Then I would have had to deal with coolant leaks with the iron head 440. I picked the lesser of the two evils. Along with the box, you need the inlet fitting, which does not come with the box due to differences in years/fitting sizes. If you go on Rock, go to the steering section for your car, hit that and look for "Power Steering End Fitting". Thats the fitting you need for the pressure line. I also installed a filter inline, out of the steering box, followed by a cooler which then heads back to the pump. Also the tech gal told me that Bouchillon has been using the Lares units for some time. Might be an additional info source for you. If you go to Fall Fling, I'll be there with the wagon. You can check it out hands on.
 
awesome info, thanks. I have the Borgeson and am happy with it, but I'm curious what prompted you to choose the Lares over the Borgeson and how did you first hear about it?
 
I have the BAC unit for my 65. Haven't used it yet, car is back burnered for awhile. I was going to do the same for the wagon. Kept hearing about the Lares unit here on the forum. Checked the price difference and it was less. Emailed Lares to get some info, then made the buy. I'm watching my expenditures on the wagon, so trying to get the best bang for the buck. Also the 11033 unit has a little faster ratio than the stocker. 11043 faster still. Happy with it so far.
 
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