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1971 Roadrunner stall problems when put in reverse

lab361

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Rittman Ohio
Just finished my 71 roadrunner project and am having a stall problem. Not sure if it is related or not but both times I stalled and the car would not start was when I put the car in reverse. The first time it happened is when I brought it home from the paint shop which is about 3 miles away. Car which has a 383 with mid-range cam and a Holly 780 dual pumper started up fine ran fine, left it run for about 20 minutes then drove it three miles. When I put it in to reverse to back into the garage the car stalled and would not start again. Put starting fluid in carb would not spark but would crank fine. About one hour later engine cooled and started up fine. I left it run for about 1 hour with starting and stopping it in between - no problems. Today I ran it about 20 minutes pulled it out of the garage then when I went to back into the garage - same thing, it stalled and would not start. Again, turned over fine, but acted like no spark to engine. I put a new ceramic resistor on the firewall thinking that might be the problem, but no deal still would not start. When I left it cool down for about one hour, then it started right up and I could back into the garage. Never had this problem until we pulled the engine, changed the camshaft to the mid-range cam and put it back into the car. Not sure where to look - any ideas out there????
 
Does it have spark? Check for it when its acting up. Sounds like no if you spray ether in it and you get nothing. Check over the wiring good. May be something loose or rubbing through. Check mainly wiring pertaining to ignition. Maybe Ecu taking a crap too. I think it doing it when you go into reverse is a coincidence but you can try power braking it in reverse as soon as you start it up. Before its gets hot and see what happens. Maybe the engine torquing in that direction is moving some wires around that are loose or shorting.
 
Thanks for the advice, plan on doing that the next time I fire it up. Right now I am afraid of taking it out of the driveway as I am afraid I would have to have it towed home.
 
Swap coil with a known good one. When it heats up, the windings could be opening. The only other thing I can think of would be the ECU as Hemi-Rebel stated.
 
Ok, I don't want to sound totally stupid ( been out of the Mopar repair game for long time now) but the ECU is the electronic box mounted on the firewall correct? I should have mentioned that when we pulled the engine to repaint it the coil appeared to be slightly leaking so I replaced it with a NAPA coil the more expensive one. Quite a while ago I replaced the dual point distributor that was in the car with an electronic ignition unit which if I recall correctly replaced the distributor and the electronic box on the firewall. I do not think it replaced the coil at that time (the kit) but do not remember for sure. I assume that a regular coil will work with that conversion since I replaced it?? If I am correct, about my assumption on what the ECU is, then is there any way to test it? Not saying that the new coil that you buy at the parts store is good off the shelf either? The last question would be if it is the ECU and I am correct about the location of it, then what ECU would you recommend I look for to replace it (Brand)? Do you have to replace both the ECU and the Distributor?

Thanks for your help

Larry
 
The ecu is the Orange(if its a mopar performance kit)box. The 5 pin plug has a screw in the center to hold it to the ecu. The ecu must be case grounded, so if you painted in there make sure that it is mounted good. Also make sure your engine to body ground strap is tight and making good contact.
 
Try just adjusting the Carburetor correctly.

If it starts when cold and runs fine then its not a spark problem no need to fiddle with ignition stuff Hard starting after long idle its loaded down with fuel to rich, (MY guess, If I have to make one) If its a Holley after it idles and its warmed up shut it down remove air filter look down inside carb is it dripping or dribbling fuel? Holley are famous for this.

If its one of those Edlebrock wanna b AFB things well their ya go.

Sorry but ECU box either works or they don't simple and your works or it wouldn't run.
 
Ok just a different slant. I'm thinking vacuum leak loose carb ect. Motor starts when choked, once warm running very lean. In reverse your running 2nd gear backwards so more load on the motor. Now even lean seams like it would restart even more so with starting fluid. But thought I would toss this in I had one that had a loose carb and very similar symptoms.
 
Vacuum leaks are generaly a Audio you should be able to here and you would know their was a problem, Im only guessing I cant here it or see it and I don't have a Christal ball I hate to guess trouble shoot any problem on the internet or phone.
Better if they bring it over to the shop
 
I got some great ideas to try and look for - Thanks to everyone for the input

Larry
 
Doright, I would have respectfully disagree with your ECU theory! If I was diagnosing this vehicle the first thing I would have checked is fuel. (agreed) and if fuel is present the next step would be to replace the ECU as this is a known Chrysler issue. When the ECU gets to a certain temp it can and will fail, then let it set for a cool down period and bam it starts. I have replaced 100's of these things over the years because of this issue. 1 key thing is remember MAKE sure you have a good ground as this WILL take out the ECU. Whenever I have replaced the unit I would add a ground from the ECU to the block.

With that said without being at the vehicle I can't say either way what the problem is but from the OP I would replace the ECU from his statements as this is the most common issue.
Sorry to disagree with you on this but from experience these do not work or don't work they do fail in this manner frequently.

Have a safe and Happy New Year Everyone

Try just adjusting the Carburetor correctly.

If it starts when cold and runs fine then its not a spark problem no need to fiddle with ignition stuff Hard starting after long idle its loaded down with fuel to rich, (MY guess, If I have to make one) If its a Holley after it idles and its warmed up shut it down remove air filter look down inside carb is it dripping or dribbling fuel? Holley are famous for this.

If its one of those Edlebrock wanna b AFB things well their ya go.

Sorry but ECU box either works or they don't simple and your works or it wouldn't run.
 
...If it starts when cold and runs fine then its not a spark problem no need to fiddle with ignition stuff...Sorry but ECU box either works or they don't simple and your works or it wouldn't run.

Doright, I am sorry, but you do not understand electronics. The heart of the ECU is a transistor (switch), and can have many fail scenarios. One scenario is where the transistor will breakdown above a certain internal temperature, but will work just fine below this threshold. If you are old enough, have you never seen a TV that worked for a number of minutes, then the picture collapses, but once the TV had been turned off fo a period of time (cooled down), it would work again. A quick test was to blast the transistor with a freezing spray, and if the picture came back, viola, you found the bad part.

lab361, yes, the ECU is on the firewall and looks like this:

ecu.jpg

Make sure it is grounded. LOL, 68GTX440, we were typing at the same time...
 
I have have hold and practice with a General Radio Telephone operator license, Air Frame and Power plant licenses and have 20+ years of experience, I certainly hope I understand the topic at hand? weather it be electrical electronic or any engine ever built up to and including many different types of Turbines.
 
I have have hold and practice with a General Radio Telephone operator license, Air Frame and Power plant licenses and have 20+ years of experience, I certainly hope I understand the topic at hand? weather it be electrical electronic or any engine ever built up to and including many different types of Turbines.

I apologize for being a little brash, but with that experience, you should know that a transistor can work, and breakdown under load or higher temp.
 
Sure, yes they do your right. and yes you could be very correct from the very beginning that's why so many of us carried a spare box in the trunk & still do. But all the same every time I ever seen one go bad it was bad no funny business run not run they were just dead. But ya I have heard story's of the intermittent BOX no worries like the other gentleman said lets get back to basics like a bad vacuum leak heck you should be able to here that to a point. drive the car 5-10 mph do a fast hard panic stop does engine die? not exact science but nasty fast test.
 
Again, a lot of great input and ideas here and I appreciate the help.

The one thing that I will do first is check the grounding on the ECU as the painter pulled the engine and did a fantastic job of painting the engine compartment after he removed all parts hanging on the inner fenders and firewall. With a new coat of paint, I am sure it could have affected the grounding as it was just mounted to the firewall. By the way, my ECU is a orange Mopar unit. If grounding is not the problem then I will change out the ECU first.

One question or comment on the Carb suggestion. I did not know Holly was known to leak but the 780 dual pumper was probably more than I needed when I replaced the Carb about 5 years after I bought the car. I had a (supposed) 6 pack cam installed by a buddy and the original carb did not have many adjustments available - thus addition of the Holly 780. The car originally came with a Holly carb on it so I stuck with the Holly name to try to keep it more original. I can tell you the idle of that cam was rough and when the hammer was down it ran darn good. With this set up though, it idled rich - I had black residue smoke coming from the pipes at idle which would eventually leave black residue on the rear valance panel about the exhaust tips. It also smelled very rich to the point you could not stand to be in the garage when it was running. Now, since the engine was pulled and I installed a "mid-range" cam - a purple shaft cam according to the Summit Racing representative, there is a noticeable but confusing difference in the car when idling. No more black smoke when idling and no more smelly exhaust. I did not change any jets in the carb, I thought it might even run richer, but it appears to be running (idling) great with normal white exhaust and not an over powering rich fuel smell like before?? Again, I am very much the novice but thought it might be the other way around without changing or reducing the jets in the carb?

If it was running too rich, shouldn't I see a and smell the rich fuel burn as before, and when I pulled the air cleaner to spray starting fluid in the carb, wouldn't I have smelled gasoline if flooded? Wouldn't the starting fluid at least make the engine hiccup or stutter with an attempt? When these bouts happened, all I would get is engine cranking with no hiccups or any attempts what so ever that sounds or feels like a flooded engine trying to start?

I am the original and only owner of the car so I pretty much know what is in the engine (with the exception of the previous cam and that is why I replaced it). Like I said previously, I did change the dual point distributor to a new electronic ignition system which replaced the ECU (I think) and the distributor, which I think no longer has points to adjust or mess with. The only other modification was I cut the heads to the 69 383 specification to get rid of the lower compression for the first glimpse of the smog systems of the engines. Other than that, just a stock 383 engine with mid-range cam and the Holly 780 dual pumper.

I will not have a chance to test anything until next weekend, but promise i will post results here since we have some interest and debate going on lol. Again, I appreciate all the suggestions and help here.

Happy New Year!

Larry

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I just remember one other thing that is different with this restoration. I changed the valve covers to chrome one from summit racing. Previously I had Micky Thompson covers which had a PCV valve in one of the covers. These new covers had no punch out for the PCV valve, it only has a breather oil fill cap. Again, just a novice but thought the PCV value was for the "smog engines" and I probably did not need it. Do you thing this could be related to the problem?
 
If this just came from a paint shop i have seen rags or paper left in the gas filler area that fall in the tank and get sucked up on the pickup! They get sucked up then fall off after it sits a bit!
 
Lab361
Things being as described above tell me a great amount one that your not a Professional mechanic and two you dont have a whole bunch of experience either enough to get into trouble but you have the means to find the appropriate help. It would be my best advice for you to do is take your car to a very competent experienced mechanic with old hot rods. I'm sure He could have your car running fine in short order, don't be surprised when he tells you your carburetor needs to be rebuilt.

Heck I clean & rebuild my Holley's at least once a year, there a great carb with very few moving parts but they do have their problems and do require regular maintenance unlike a more reliable carburetor such as a AFB or a Quadrajet which are a bit more forgiving on regular maintenance.

Your missing PVC hose that you talked about above in my opinion would be required I hope The vacuum port for it on the manifold/carb is plugged having it missing would explain a rich condition on one engine and now when placed on another engine now that engine appears lean or to have a now normal fuel mixture? my god the rpm would be very hi tho with that big of a vacuum leak.

Missing grounds or painted over grounds will mess with whole electrical system not just the engine.... But if the box doesn't have a ground or intermittent ground it shouldn't run at all but will leaving you to figure it all out.


I had one on a 68-69 Plymouth nothing worked right kept dieing when air conditioning or heater would be turned on.
That was bad grounds on a fresh restoration had another 68-69 with multiple electrical problems after a restoration that one was 4 broken wires and 2 bad grounds and a Bad Voltage divider dealy bob thing that goes into the Dash gauge cluster in the back. nothing about it on the schematics either that one had me chassin my tail for a bit.

I am by no means any sort of Automotive mechanic myself I hold no ASE certs no do I have a bunch of Automotive experience on any one particular car make or model.
I am a Hobbyist myself, Im sure their are some Pro's that can help but knowing the full story helps.
 
I agree ,I have seen many problems like this with ignition coils .You can run for 20 to 25 mins with no problem but then they warm up and get hot your motor will die and won't start back until they have cooled off,that goes along with the ign boxes too.I'd say his problem is with one of the 2.

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I've had Quadrajets,Holleys,Carters and Edelbrock carbs and I can tell you hands down the Holly is the best,I've never had to rebuild any Holley carb once a year just make sure it's free of problems.The worst carbs I've seen are the Quadrajets,that's just my opinion, I think we all have our favs.
 
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