440/727 need help understanding

Engine, Trans & Driveline

  1. kinghs95

    kinghs95 Active Member

    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    3
    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2015
    Location:
    Bartlesville, Oklahoma
    Local Time:
    12:01 AM
    I have a 1978 cast crank 440 Bored 30 over, I think 30/30 crank might be wrong, and mild cam ....Which is externally balanced due to cast crank and harmonic balancer. I was wanting to know what torque converter and flexplate I need? Also what’s the difference btw having teeth on flexplate and having them on torque converter? Also I have already bought a mini starter for it but will that effect which on I need teeth on, and or what size of torque converter I can have? I haven’t gotten a 727 yet but I know I want an automatic.

    5B2CFBF5-A8C3-41A3-85A5-E9F588ECF181.jpeg
     
  2. BeepBeepRR

    BeepBeepRR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,421
    Likes Received:
    4787
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    Location:
    Atlanta,Ga
    Local Time:
    1:01 AM
    You need to know what cam you have that will help you to know what stall you need on the torque converter. Others that are more smartererr will chime in. But essentially any big block mopar 727 torque converter should have the same teeth and the mini starter should work either way.
     
    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
    • Ghostrider 67

      Ghostrider 67 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

      Messages:
      20,948
      Likes Received:
      37790
      Joined:
      Oct 16, 2014
      Location:
      Salisbury, Vermont
      Local Time:
      1:01 AM
      look up the cam manufacturer and it will list you cam by number including whether you need a higher than stock torque converter to go with it. Generally the 10" wide torque converter seems to be the one everyone wants behind a 440. I'm not an expert though and perhaps some of the racers will chime in.
       
      • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
      • wyrmrider

        wyrmrider Well-Known Member

        Messages:
        2,456
        Likes Received:
        950
        Joined:
        Aug 26, 2014
        Location:
        los angeles
        Local Time:
        10:01 PM
        I'd get the b&M flexplate for your external ballanced 440 (not the 6 pack one unless you have a 6 pack crank- check the front balancer
        that way you can use a neutral balanced converter
        now converter will depend on your cam- any details
        remember the factory used the smaller HP converter even on non HP cars due to the low grunt torque of the low compression motors
        what gears?
        since you have a 78 do you have a lock up converter trans?
        What the other guys said
        do you have a low compression motor- what exhaust manifolds?
        any cranking compression numbers or how far down are the pistons if you have had it apart
        cheers
         
        • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
        • Agree Agree x 1
        • 68Moparmaniac

          68Moparmaniac Well-Known Member

          Messages:
          971
          Likes Received:
          1600
          Joined:
          Jan 18, 2019
          Location:
          Utah
          Local Time:
          11:01 PM
          Unless I missed a memo, all 440's are internally balanced... but I have lived under a rock for awhile :moparsmiley:
           
          • Disagree Disagree x 2
          • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
          • Agree Agree x 1
          • Ghostrider 67

            Ghostrider 67 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

            Messages:
            20,948
            Likes Received:
            37790
            Joined:
            Oct 16, 2014
            Location:
            Salisbury, Vermont
            Local Time:
            1:01 AM
            Externally balanced engines will have a significant weight placed off center on the harmonic absorber and flywheel. If your flywheel just has the normal drill pecks in a couple of places then it might be safe to say it's internally balanced. I am also unaware of any 4340 cranks requiring external balancing. From meep-meep.
             
            • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
            • Demonic

              Demonic Well-Known Member

              Messages:
              1,136
              Likes Received:
              962
              Joined:
              Jun 5, 2017
              Location:
              Maryland
              Local Time:
              1:01 AM
              For the classic Mopars, the starter teeth are always on the converter. GM had them on the flexplate. :D
               
              • Like Like x 1
              • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
              • Agree Agree x 1
              • WP29440SE

                WP29440SE Well-Known Member

                Messages:
                3,975
                Likes Received:
                2990
                Joined:
                Dec 7, 2011
                Location:
                Englewood CO
                Local Time:
                11:01 PM
                all cast crank 440's are externally balanced. the big fat balancer is usually marked . that also means it came with 2 20gram weights welded on either side of the drain plug on the converter. as mentioned, you can also use a flex plate that replaces the weights on the converter and use one without weights. get you a 10" converter.
                 
                • Like Like x 1
                • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
                • Agree Agree x 1
                • 451Mopar

                  451Mopar Well-Known Member

                  Messages:
                  1,994
                  Likes Received:
                  1364
                  Joined:
                  Oct 25, 2011
                  Location:
                  Aurora, CO
                  Local Time:
                  11:01 PM
                  The B&M counterweight flexplate is a good choice. It allows using any neutral balance converter with any of the different bolt patterns.
                  The starter ring gear for the automatic is on the converter.
                  Mini Starter, no problem, just need to remove the off-set connector/adaptor piece.
                  Best to connect starter wires before installing the starter because they sort if face the block.
                   
                  • Like Like x 1
                  • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
                  • Agree Agree x 1
                  • Dipstick

                    Dipstick Well-Known Member

                    Messages:
                    698
                    Likes Received:
                    644
                    Joined:
                    Oct 26, 2018
                    Location:
                    Out West
                    Local Time:
                    10:01 PM
                    440 Cast Crank 09-01-73C.jpg 440 Cast Crank 09-01-73C page2.jpg
                     
                    • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
                    • Budnicks

                      Budnicks Super Poster, You Can Just Thank Me Later FBBO Gold Member

                      Messages:
                      48,457
                      Likes Received:
                      48719
                      Joined:
                      Jan 16, 2011
                      Location:
                      East of Sonora Calif., We love the 2nd Amendment
                      Local Time:
                      10:01 PM
                      we really need more info

                      for discussion sake, I'll continue

                      what is the intended usage of the car/engine combo ?
                      what is you final goal ?,
                      the answer may be a huge deciding factor when choosing
                      engine/camshaft, heads, exhaust, ignition, gears, torque converters
                      & many other components to make a combo work together

                      the V8 Dakota style "mini starter" works on any V8
                      that are Small block LA, Magnum or Big Block B-RB
                      (except new gen. 3 & up hemi's)
                      sometimes if the starter isn't clock-able,
                      you may need to trim down the main 1/4" 12vt stud,
                      so it doesn't contact the block & able to get the battery cables on & off
                      without removing the starter

                      as said multiple time here already
                      with automatic 727tf/904tf etc. the starter ring-gear
                      is on the torque-converter, both on BB or SB

                      not knowing your camshaft or rear gears
                      or even the induction/fuels system needs
                      it's hard to recommend a Torque Converter (TQ)
                      specifically for your combo
                      the OE style "Flexplate" is sort of a cloverleaf shape,
                      it has no starter ring gear on it
                      many externally balance engines
                      are balanced with weight on the TQ &/or harmonic balancer ecentric
                      you can use a full circle flex plate (not a flywheel, that's a 4 speed or manual)
                      like a B&M, the starters "ring-gear" is still on the TQ, not the flexpalte

                      (if you use a neutral balance torque converter,
                      from/intended for a steel crank equipped 383, 440 or 426
                      )
                      & have a cast crank in your 440, all cast cranks are externally balanced
                      unless custom "internally" balanced at the machine shop
                      the external balance full circle style flex plate,
                      like a B&M also
                      (has a 6 bolt crankshaft pattern, has 8 holes, 2 pairs of 4, for different size converter bolt patterns)
                      will have a half-moon chunk out of it for the external balance,
                      for an external balance, cast crankshaft

                      disclaimer;
                      #'s below are just used for references/information purpose,
                      they're not necessarily a recommendation


                      as to the converter choices
                      if you have a steeper higher numerically rear gear
                      &/or a camshaft with 284* advertised duration,
                      a min. of a 10"-11" TQ a 2500-2800rpm stall speed
                      is a good idea, so the car won't lunge or creep in gear...

                      again it all depends
                      on what your final use for the car is

                      "albeit"
                      the more camshaft, especially in regarding more duration
                      & more steep the rear gear (or higher numerically) you have
                      "generally speaking"
                      (like a 3.91:1 - 4.30:1 gear ratios) on a street/strip combo
                      the more stall speed you can use,
                      like a 3000-3200 or 3500rpm stall speed
                      gear multiplications/has mechanical advantages of the steeper gears
                      (especially higher numerically rear gears)
                      lessons the affects of the TQ stall speed on take off,
                      the car will move much easier, even with a higher stall speed with steeper gears
                      like a 4.30:1 vs a 3.55:1

                      (a heavy car can effect stall speeds a lot too)

                      you can get more effective stall speed,
                      lets say you have a 11"-11.5" 2200-2500rpm converter street/strip
                      if it's on/in a car equipped with 3.55:1 rear gears,
                      vs the 4.30:1 steeper gears
                      (it may actually stall/flash rpm more like 2600-2700rpm, before the car moves hard)
                      mainly because of the mechanical advantage of
                      steeper gear & torque multiplication
                      with the same converter & a 4.30:1 gear, the car will want to move easier
                      or quicker, it may still flash to the advertised 2200-2500rpm stall speed,
                      but the car will already react much quicker, less/lower effective stall speed
                      (the converter really needs to match your whole cars combo, to be effective/efficient)

                      the more HP & Torque you engine puts out
                      the more critical the camshaft, gears & converter combo plays
                      in selecting a proper TQ, can make or break your combo/performance

                      if any of that makes any sense

                      good luck
                       
                      Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
                      • Like Like x 4
                      • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
                      • Demonic

                        Demonic Well-Known Member

                        Messages:
                        1,136
                        Likes Received:
                        962
                        Joined:
                        Jun 5, 2017
                        Location:
                        Maryland
                        Local Time:
                        1:01 AM
                        No, it shouldn't. Fortunately, as a company with it's roots in solid engineering, founded by a man who surrounded himself with talented engineers, designers, etc they got that right the first time.
                         
                        • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
                        • kinghs95

                          kinghs95 Active Member

                          Messages:
                          36
                          Likes Received:
                          3
                          Joined:
                          Nov 29, 2015
                          Location:
                          Bartlesville, Oklahoma
                          Local Time:
                          12:01 AM
                          Sorry it’s a 1976 440 going in a 1972 satellite that I’m putting a 8 3/4 rearend in with 489 third-member with clutch sure-grip, 3.55 gears, 1350 yoke that I bought from dr diff, and have hooker headers. I don’t currently have a 727 yet and a lot of other parts but working on it. Just trying to educate myself on what I need or what is best. It has a mild purple cam but no 100% what it was bc I bought the 440 a few years ago and can’t remember.

                          22EED369-A78B-4C2D-BD6E-625F8E58E780.jpeg B3610598-05A0-4A34-AB77-7BA2E518FA39.jpeg 72DBB673-5609-4B56-8F66-24664E7B12BF.jpeg
                           
                          • Like Like x 1
                          • wyrmrider

                            wyrmrider Well-Known Member

                            Messages:
                            2,456
                            Likes Received:
                            950
                            Joined:
                            Aug 26, 2014
                            Location:
                            los angeles
                            Local Time:
                            10:01 PM
                            can you check the lift on the purpleshaft
                            a lot of the purple shafts used the same spring- check it out
                            any idea what your cr and cranking compression are/ were?
                             
                          • 68Moparmaniac

                            68Moparmaniac Well-Known Member

                            Messages:
                            971
                            Likes Received:
                            1600
                            Joined:
                            Jan 18, 2019
                            Location:
                            Utah
                            Local Time:
                            11:01 PM
                            Thanks, I forgot about the "cast stuff". Seems all the 440's I've played with were all forged animals, easy to forget about things like that....good stuff :thumbsup:
                             
                            • Thanks! Thanks! x 1
                            • kinghs95

                              kinghs95 Active Member

                              Messages:
                              36
                              Likes Received:
                              3
                              Joined:
                              Nov 29, 2015
                              Location:
                              Bartlesville, Oklahoma
                              Local Time:
                              12:01 AM
                              a lot of the purple shafts used the same spring- check it out
                              any idea what your cr and cranking compression are/ were?

                              I think it was 8:2:1 but not 100% sure
                               
                            1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
                              By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.