71 charger 383 ammeter bypass?

72RoadrunnerGTX

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Not dead enough. As long as people suggest keeping an ammeter, I will keep telling the world why Ma-Mopar charging system is an awful design and why wiring the alternator directly to the battery is a much better and safer solution.
For the record, there are no posts in this thread where I have promoted or “suggested keeping an ammeter” to anyone. Simply challenging the mis-information you have posted backing your claim of the dreaded mythical “ticking time bomb” ammeter as it was originally designed and used sixty years ago. And why anyone would expect it to be maintenance free or not subject to mis-use (loads at the battery) 50+ years later. I have also pointed out, for those wanting to retain originality, how they can be, and are being, used safely today even with some modern additional loads and alternator upgrades.

I have started another thread over in the electrical section should you or others want to continue that debate. Not interested in your experience with, or comparison to, your highly modified car, apples and oranges.

Done with this thread.
 
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velrob

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Hey triple

Do you mind sending closer pics? I plan to do the same. I'll run a seperate wire to the ammeter just so it does something. How did you go around the washer bottle with the 4 gauge wire?

I plan to upgrade to 200amp alternator also.

Is there any aftermarket AC kits available for 2nd Gen chargers?

Thx

TE="Triple Black 73, post: 911328141, member: 25044"]The factory ran the 100 amp feed wire to the starter relay because it's the shortest and easiest path (about a 4 foot run). The issue is the alternator is on the right and the battery is on the left. The factory would either had go around the radiator (which is a 7 foot run), or across the firewall and down the fender, then back to the starter relay (which would be down right crazy). They could go over the engine, if the car had a small block, but a big block has the plug wire on the front which would cause all sort of issues if the feed wire was ran near them.

The ammeter measures the different of amps from the battery and what the alternator puts out. In my setup, I'm already at 90 amps with everything going and I plan to install three more fans (oil, p/s, and a pusher), along with a big car-audio system. If I had an working ammeter, that sucker would be pegged deep into the C zone and never move. So, it's 100% useless. In fact, the battery doesn't have enough juice for my car to run for more than a few seconds, a minute tops. It has just enough juice to spin the motor over before the alternator kicks in (it doesn't start working until it spins 1500 rpm which is why the pulley is so small). I monitor volts via the Sniper display screen.

I wasn't going to show my setup or talk about it much, because I think it's could be considered bragging, but I think it's relevant since you want to wire to the battery. On the right side, you'll notice the 4 awg cable ran off the alternator (it's cover in black Tech-Flex) going through the core support and a large service loop on the left of the car. The wire is tucked neatly under the core support. There is also a 4 awg ground for the alternator going directly to the frame. This is to insure a good ground for alternator, again to reduce AC whine. There's a new 4 awg cable to the starter, and 3x 10 awg running to the fuse/relay box inside the left front fender. The 8 awg to the starter relay is a little harder to see, but it's in there and ran off the battery in the bundle of smaller wires and then into the harness near the bottom of the battery. The two 4 awg ground cable is ran to the shut off, with a 4 awg to the engine and one to the frame. The ground bolts are carriage bolts, with two nuts. The alternator is the 220 amp PowerMaster with a March Performance 3-7/8 turn buckle reduced to 3-3/8. The end result of all this is a steady 14.1 to 14.3 volts with absolutely zero whine coming from the speakers.

View attachment 814253

Close up of the ground bolt. I have one on either side. The factory left a square hole on either side which I was able to fish a nickle plated steel carriage bolt through. Copper would have been better but my calculations showed this setup is good enough to meet my needs.

View attachment 814256 [/QUOTE]
 

zsn0w

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Hey triple

Do you mind sending closer pics? I plan to do the same. I'll run a seperate wire to the ammeter just so it does something. How did you go around the washer bottle with the 4 gauge wire?

I plan to upgrade to 200amp alternator also.

Is there any aftermarket AC kits available for 2nd Gen chargers?

Thx
Woah, what's your plan here exactly? Be careful. If you are doing what he is saying and connecting your alternator directly to your battery and then keeping the rest the same you will have problems. The output to all the accessories is on the alternator side of the ammeter. If you are putting the alternator on the battery side and then running a line to the battery peg of the ammeter, it will be stuck pegged at D and will have the entire car's power running through it at all times. You'd be blowing fuses or frying fusible links repeatedly. Where are you planning on connecting this separate wire? Make sure you have a good understanding about how the system works before you modify it. It's not that confusing, just a little counter-intuitive at first since it's fed from two sources.
 

Triple Black 73

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Hey triple

Do you mind sending closer pics? I plan to do the same. I'll run a seperate wire to the ammeter just so it does something. How did you go around the washer bottle with the 4 gauge wire?

I plan to upgrade to 200amp alternator also.

Is there any aftermarket AC kits available for 2nd Gen chargers?

Thx

Sure thing. I'll be cleaning the car tomorrow for a car show that night. I'll take a photos of my setup.

BTW, You can't have an ammeter when you wire the alternator directly to the battery. It doesn't work that way. In summary, you're going from "load-alt-ammeter-batt" to "alt-batt-load-voltmeter"

Thus, I'm looking at converting the ammeter into a volt meter: https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/volt-gauge-conversion.28529/

AC conversion depends on your belt setup. Adding AC to my car would require a completely different belt setup. The rest is just hoses and pipes.
 

velrob

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No I mean I'll run any 16g wire to give power to the ammeter so the needle moves but it doesn't mean anything.
 

Triple Black 73

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No I mean I'll run any 16g wire to give power to the ammeter so the needle moves but it doesn't mean anything.

Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. It measures current flow between the battery and alternator, and only rated for 35 amps. So where is the flow going? zedSnow is right; you'll burn up the ammeter.

If you do what I did with a 200 amp alternator, you must by pass the ammeter. There's no way around it.
 

zsn0w

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What other wires will you be running, though? ALL of the stock system is on the alternator side of the ammeter. There is a splice in the harness that everything comes off of. You will need to get the power there somewhere.
If you are saying you are just going to isolate the ammeter from everything else and put a wire from the battery to one side and a ground to the other, that is a short and it WILL catch on fire in all likelihood.
 
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zsn0w

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Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. It measures current flow between the battery and alternator, and only rated for 35 amps. So where is the flow going? zedSnow is right; you'll burn up the ammeter.

If you do what I did with a 200 amp alternator, you must by pass the ammeter. There's no way around it.
This is basically the correct understanding of what an ammeter does (it measures current flowing between the battery and alternator sides of the system), but now you are contradicting your arguments from earlier. "If I had an working ammeter, that sucker would be pegged deep into the C zone and never move. So, it's 100% useless" does not line up with this...
The idea that "there's no way around" bypassing the ammeter... is not something you have proved at all, so please don't state that as a fact because it is not.
 

Triple Black 73

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This is basically the correct understanding of what an ammeter does (it measures current flowing between the battery and alternator sides of the system), but now you are contradicting your arguments from earlier. "If I had an working ammeter, that sucker would be pegged deep into the C zone and never move. So, it's 100% useless" does not line up with this...
The idea that "there's no way around" bypassing the ammeter... is not something you have proved at all, so please don't state that as a fact because it is not.

Can't a boy learn, zedSlow? I thought it was to monitor the alternator output. Found out it was even more unless than that; it was intended to monitor the battery charge.

That won't work when wiring the alternator directly to the battery because the battery acts like a capacitor in such as setup. In the '70s designed factory setup, the battery is a draining load until the volts at the battery is equal with the volts of the rest of them system.
 

zsn0w

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Can't a boy learn, zedSlow? I thought it was to monitor the alternator output. Found out it was even more unless than that; it was intended to monitor the battery charge.

That won't work when wiring the alternator directly to the battery because the battery acts like a capacitor in such as setup. In the '70s designed factory setup, the battery is a draining load until the volts at the battery is equal with the volts of the rest of them system.
Then maybe you should correct the stuff that you apparently now know you said incorrectly that velrob is planning on using in his system?? We're trying to help him here.

Either way, I figured I'd try to clear up some more stuff here but I'm out again. If you're going to act like you're trying to pick a bar fight or something and call me wrong names to try to upset me, that's not a conversation I really care to be a part of. Not worth putting time into.

@velrob If you have any questions about how to wire up your system and would like my input, please let me know. DO NOT just wire up the ammeter between the battery and ground if that is what you meant before. That wouldn't be good.
 

Triple Black 73

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Then maybe you should correct the stuff that you apparently now know you said incorrectly that velrob is planning on using in his system?? We're trying to help him here.

Either way, I figured I'd try to clear up some more stuff here but I'm out again. If you're going to act like you're trying to pick a bar fight or something and call me wrong names to try to upset me, that's not a conversation I really care to be a part of. Not worth putting time into.

@velrob If you have any questions about how to wire up your system and would like my input, please let me know. DO NOT just wire up the ammeter between the battery and ground if that is what you meant before. That wouldn't be good.

Why you sound so bent out of shape, zedsl()w? Not going to "fix it". Let the history live.

@velrob Yeah man, no ammeter if you wire the alternator to the battery. You'll burn your car to the ground! Just bypass it. Then convert it to an volt meter.
 

velrob

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Ah ok thats what I was planning to do.

I will just bypass it all together and leave it dead if its the only way.

I want to know best way to have my wiring setup for future 200 amp alt.



Then maybe you should correct the stuff that you apparently now know you said incorrectly that velrob is planning on using in his system?? We're trying to help him here.

Either way, I figured I'd try to clear up some more stuff here but I'm out again. If you're going to act like you're trying to pick a bar fight or something and call me wrong names to try to upset me, that's not a conversation I really care to be a part of. Not worth putting time into.

@velrob If you have any questions about how to wire up your system and would like my input, please let me know. DO NOT just wire up the ammeter between the battery and ground if that is what you meant before. That wouldn't be good.
 

RM23M9A

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From what I've read, the problem with the ammeters was generally in improper connections to the back. Make sure the terminals are clean and tightened down good and you should be alright. The only time power is going across the ammeter is when the battery is being charged or the alternator is inadequate for powering all of your accessories and the battery needs to help. If you have the two lines and they're of adequate size, you won't have to worry about it ever smoking. The line through the ammeter will have more resistance, so it will only ever really be used if there's a huge amount of current going across it - i.e. when something is wrong (shorted).

Wow! So did this work out OKAY? With no problems? I'm a BIG FAN of Dailectric grease. Hopefully it works, with no probs!
 

Nacho-RT74

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Dielectric grease actually isolates the electricity, but protects from corrosion. So it gets some goods because is not a complete isolation like a regular grease, but also some bads. It must be used with care on specific instances
 

Nacho-RT74

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wow... I really missed some stuff here. I simply clicked on "unwatch thread" earlier LOL

if run a 100 amps or 500 amps alt was REALLY dangerous, you could blow a bulb with the same batt you crank the starter motor.

amperage is just given per devices request not pushed! but the source must be enough to source it, thats what keeps healthy the system... and with the propper paths of course.

( and now, will click on "unwatch thread" again LOL )
 

RJRENTON

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For the record, there are no posts in this thread where I have promoted or “suggested keeping an ammeter” to anyone. Simply challenging the mis-information you have posted backing your claim of the dreaded mythical “ticking time bomb” ammeter as it was originally designed and used sixty years ago. And why anyone would expect it to be maintenance free or not subject to mis-use (loads at the battery) 50+ years later. I have also pointed out, for those wanting to retain originality, how they can be, and are being, used safely today even with some modern additional loads and alternator upgrades.

I have started another thread over in the electrical section should you or others want to continue that debate. Not interested in your experience with, or comparison to, your highly modified car, apples and oranges.

Done with this thread.
EXCELLENT PRESENTATION........but I'm reasonably sure someone will try and introduce the old ammeter vs voltmeter issue and how they can connect their new 2000 amp alternator to be able to perform TIG welding.....and their methodology is the only way to do so......how sad to be so narrow minded.
BOB RENTON
 

RM23M9A

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What IF, I ran a 12 Ga wire from alternator output to main battery wire connection on starter, using "Eye Connectors/Heatshrink? Some guy at Year One suggested this... Dunno what it accomplishes maybe lessening amps going THRU ammeter...
 

Nacho-RT74

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What IF, I ran a 12 Ga wire from alternator output to main battery wire connection on starter, using "Eye Connectors/Heatshrink? Some guy at Year One suggested this... Dunno what it accomplishes maybe lessening amps going THRU ammeter...
damn too much temptation to read this thread for new posts again LOL

Ammeter just read what goes/come from batt while alt is not working or is unable to hold the load the car requires ( Charge reading ) OR if get dischaged and alt is able to recharge ( charge reading ). If you conect everything to the batt post, sure could kill the ammeter even more if batt is discharged. There is a reason on the stock setup NOTHING is sourced from the batt, but everything from the alt side.

The ammeter just enters on the game when the bat enters on the game. While batt is out of the game, the ammeter will be in peace no matter what is happening on the car.

You can just try it. Get the batt discharged a bit with lights on... maybe 5 minutes. Crank up the engine and check your amm reading. It should be on charge side trusting the ammeter it gets a good iddle output capacity. If not, just increase a bit the iddle to hold the output capacity. Then disconnect the batt and check the ammeter again. The ammeter will stop its reading ( while you don't have anything being sourced from batt side of course, which is incorrect ) and engine will keep running. You could even maybe turn on lights ( parking lights is enough ) and ammeter will still death centered, once again depending on alt capacity to hold the car load. If not try it again with iddle screw readjusted to hold the alt capacity.

This prooves the ammeter shows JUST the batt status.

Don't trust me, just make the experiment by yourself. If I'm wrong just let me know it.

Just to let you know, I have made this half dozen of times, so is not just based on theory but also on practice. So I'm sure what you will get, but maybe making it by yourself will trust it.

what the YR1 guy told you is simply a virtual ammeter bypass.
 
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RM23M9A

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damn too much temptation to read this thread for new posts again LOL

Ammeter just read what goes/come from batt while alt is not working or is unable to hold the load the car requires ( Charge reading ) OR if get dischaged and alt is able to recharge ( charge reading ). If you conect everything to the batt post, sure could kill the ammeter even more if batt is discharged. There is a reason on the stock setup NOTHING is sourced from the batt, but everything from the alt side.

The ammeter just enters on the game when the bat enters on the game. While batt is out of the game, the ammeter will be in peace no matter what is happening on the car.

You can just try it. Get the batt discharged a bit with lights on... maybe 5 minutes. Crank up the engine and check your amm reading. It should be on charge side trusting the ammeter it gets a good iddle output capacity. If not, just increase a bit the iddle to hold the output capacity. Then disconnect the batt and check the ammeter again. The ammeter will stop its reading ( while you don't have anything being sourced from batt side of course, which is incorrect ) and engine will keep running. You could even maybe turn on lights ( parking lights is enough ) and ammeter will still death centered, once again depending on alt capacity to hold the car load. If not try it again with iddle screw readjusted to hold the alt capacity.

This prooves the ammeter shows JUST the batt status.

Don't trust me, just make the experiment by yourself. If I'm wrong just let me know it.

Just to let you know, I have made this half dozen of times, so is not just based on theory but also on practice. So I'm sure what you will get, but maybe making it by yourself will trust it.

what the YR1 guy told you is simply a virtual ammeter bypass.

Yes exactly, It doesnt sound like a good idea, always known a best way to check if Alternator is working is to disconnect battery whike running. If car dies? Alternator no good. But looking at diarams and when installing several dash harnesses Ive learned that car has NO electectricity until Ammeter is in series. It acts as a "Fuse" of sorts? As BLACK(- Side) of Ammeter runs into RED+ of fuse block. Usually why we see so many owners of many 340/440/383 cars have to make their own "Hot Wire" from Battery to starter and or ignition. I don't think this "Jumper Wire" can hurt, but would probably cause Ammeter to read "0" or dead center, since Alt is always going right back to battery. I think he's (At Yr1,) is giving out an old trick to take some of the abuse OFF of the Ammeter?
Weird science! :moparsmiley: :screwy:
 
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