Afx cars-who's right??-lets clear the air

[Jeff Peterson]

Half way there!

 

[fullmetaljacket]

I think a bunch of us here wish we were there, but now obviously have to yield to those who were.
The confusion in my theory is that so many guys were making changes almost overnight as well as the factory and some cars got in front of the line before others thus receiving parts or new changes in steps or in whole.

The rush of the moment must have been amazing in that some cars started out as A864's or A990's and then received plans and parts to make them into another rendition of a radical new kind. Such are the fogs and spoils of war.
I'm just excited that this thread is so passionately debated since some of the early antecedent cars (The 2%'s) got lost in the shuffle of conversation over their more infamous successors. Carry on.

 

[topside]

Yup - when listening to & talking with those racers, the underlying vibe is of a frantic time, grabbing what you could in a way.
Also, the the cars were essentially tools - tweak, update, cut, whatever it took to get to the sharp end, so to speak.
Every Monday, the Plymouth guys had to call in (to Dale Reeker, IIRC) with results and whatever they might need - which would then be air-freighted.
They weren't effin' around.
The guys lower on the food chain needed to scrounge/adapt/get clever to try & keep up.

 

[Jeff Peterson]

Also, the the cars were essentially tools - tweak, update, cut, whatever it took to get to the sharp end

Today we treat them with the historical significance they deserve but, back in the day they were treated no different than a P51 or a B24 coming back from a mission, patch it back together and get back in the air! (or the track lol)

 

[Dave6T4]

I remember the first time I saw one of those 10/15 1965 AWB racers. It was a white 1965 Coronet. We have a local drag strip at Sparta, Ontario, near St. Thomas, and it used to have test & tune nights on Wednesday evenings. In 1969 & 1970, I owned a 1969 SuperBee, and was at the track often, so I figure this AWB showed up in that time frame. 1965 Coronets and Belvederes were never marketed in Canada, so seeing one in any condition was fairly rare. Upon looking at this "funny" car, I figured it was some used up, hacked up old racecar. It looked so strange with the obviously changed wheel locations, and hardtop roof on a 2-door sedan. We heard at the time that guy racing it was from Detroit. That night there was also another Detroit car racing there. It was a 1962 Chrysler hardtop, with a 426 Hemi and a rarely-seen Clutch-Flite. We figured these guys were racing buddies. Detroit cars quite often showed up at our track to try out different combinations, or just get dialled in, away from prying Detroit eyes. This track was just 125 miles down Hwy. 401 from Detroit, so a 2 hour drive would put you there. Looking back on it now, I wonder if this was the old Dave Strickler or Color Me Gone AWB. This Coronet was white, at the time with no owner graphics.

 

[Jeff Peterson]

It would have been most certainly a "privateer" built car, the Strickler car was sold to Chuck Mcjury and was reskined as a '66, and the Lindamood/Branster car was "acquired" mid '65 season, by Mr. Norms Grand Spaulding and stayed there at least through the '68 season.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Here's an example of a rear end altered wheel base while leaving the fronts in the stock location. From the outside, the engine set back of 4 inches makes for a sneakier set up than even the 2% cars.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

I often wondered how the Magnesium front wheels fared in the 2%'s. I mean, if the Mag K members were prone to failing, were the magnesium wheels themselves not too far behind with that fate?

Lots of wheels got shuffled between cars back then with the bigger teams. Bigger budgets I guess.

 

[topside]

Well, there were Mg Ks and stainless-sheet Ks, in addition to the normal ones.
Years ago, I saw some behind-the-car video footage of Cecil in Missile V or VI (Melrose had 2 '64s, Maxie & Hemi) at Famoso, and about 50' out the car makes an immediate hard right, just missing a dragster on the return road. Of course, I called him. What was going on was some weird spindles Chrysler had sent, and the alignment specs they wanted were nutty to accommodate the set-up. Made the cars undriveable, as another thing that was surfacing was rear axle housing deflection. Chrysler blamed it on the Mg K, but all the goofy stuff got yarded out of the Missiles ASAP - but Chrysler wanted the Mg Ks back, and most complied. I think there are a couple of stainless Ks left in the world, but the Mg ones I'd have to ask.
As for Mg wheels, my Duster had Flys on it and carried the front wheels pretty much every pass - maybe 16"-18" on a good lunch - never had a problem. Landy probably did the most wheelstands of any of the guys, but of course we can't ask him...I'll try to remember it next time I talk to Cecil.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Well, there were Mg Ks and stainless-sheet Ks, in addition to the normal ones.
Years ago, I saw some behind-the-car video footage of Cecil in Missile V or VI (Melrose had 2 '64s, Maxie & Hemi) at Famoso, and about 50' out the car makes an immediate hard right, just missing a dragster on the return road. Of course, I called him. What was going on was some weird spindles Chrysler had sent, and the alignment specs they wanted were nutty to accommodate the set-up. Made the cars undriveable, as another thing that was surfacing was rear axle housing deflection. Chrysler blamed it on the Mg K, but all the goofy stuff got yarded out of the Missiles ASAP - but Chrysler wanted the Mg Ks back, and most complied. I think there are a couple of stainless Ks left in the world, but the Mg ones I'd have to ask.
As for Mg wheels, my Duster had Flys on it and carried the front wheels pretty much every pass - maybe 16"-18" on a good lunch - never had a problem. Landy probably did the most wheelstands of any of the guys, but of course we can't ask him...I'll try to remember it next time I talk to Cecil.

You mean Chrysler recalled the MG's from all the racers? I read somewhere that one of the cars crashed upstairs because of an MG miscarrying.
The stainless K's stood the test to a certain degree, but those Hemi's were pulling stumps and pulling wheels into the sky.
A theory I have is that certain K's and or wheels failed at certain sections of their structures, ie: motor mounts, mounting tabs, steering box mounts, wheel lips, spokes, mounting flanges. Is there a smoking gun pattern to these issues? If you can elaborate through Cecil, enquiring minds are open.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Three stainless K's were here in New York back in the day. I know the back story to all three of them, but can only elaborate on one of them at this time out of respect to the sources of K #2 and #3.

Cold K-ase #1 was installed in a very fast high 8 second '65 Plymouth street racer. It was a serious grudge car that ran for $5,000 and up.
This thing would pull the wheels at an altitude of 5 to 6 feet over sea level and carry them past the 60 foot marks on almost every run. Big tire car, the whole nine. I don't recall ever knowing where the K originated, but I do know from what the owner told me that after it served for a short while on the track and street, it was tossed into a dumpster in East New York because it had a few cracks throughout. Wheelstand tough? I don't think most things are no matter what material.
Stainless it was but it wasn't painless to hear that story. Such is legend.

 

[topside]

Just got off the phone with Cecil, and here's what he told me: the spindle deal was Valiant spindles, and with a normal alignment the car was undrivable @ Famoso. So they brought the car back to Melrose and then went out again to Fremont, where to get it to go straight, it took almost an inch of toe-in - turned out the Valiant spindles were bending. After that, they reverted to stock spindles, but Chrysler blamed the issue on the Mg K. He doesn't recall the Mg or the stainless Ks cracking, nor for that matter the Mg wheels. Bear in mind those were drag cars, so they didn't see potholes or curbs like street cars do. He recalled Dale Reeker telling him that 5 stainless Ks were made. He had one, but it got stolen, and he bought another out of MN some years back - $6,000.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Just got off the phone with Cecil, and here's what he told me: the spindle deal was Valiant spindles, and with a normal alignment the car was undrivable @ Famoso. So they brought the car back to Melrose and then went out again to Fremont, where to get it to go straight, it took almost an inch of toe-in - turned out the Valiant spindles were bending. After that, they reverted to stock spindles, but Chrysler blamed the issue on the Mg K. He doesn't recall the Mg or the stainless Ks cracking, nor for that matter the Mg wheels. Bear in mind those were drag cars, so they didn't see potholes or curbs like street cars do. He recalled Dale Reeker telling him that 5 stainless Ks were made. He had one, but it got stolen, and he bought another out of MN some years back - $6,000.

Five extra stainless K's aside from the supposed 12 or so for the 10-15 cars?

 

[topside]

5 total - so apparently, not everyone got one to try, nor were they included - or, I suppose it's possible that the Dodge guys didn't tell the Plymouth guys that they got some, nor was the distribution of them apparently communicated. There was a rivalry between Plymouth & Dodge, which also happened between divisions of GM and likely FoMoCo.
It doesn't seem that all of the contract racers got the same deals - I remember a story about S&M having so many fresh Hemis in a room that they'd walk over the top of them to reach the other side. Petty's was similar on the Cup side.

 

[rmchrgr]

the spindle deal was Valiant spindles, the Valiant spindles were bending.

Not saying it's not true but it seems odd the engineers would have pushed that idea, even with lightweight parts in front. The "early A" stuff was puny compared to the B platform. Those early A cars never had 15" wheels either and only had wheels with the 4" bolt pattern. '67-up standard-issue A body parts ended up being beefier than the '63-'66 stuff.

I'd have to guess the S.A.I. would have been different too? Plus they would have had to change the upper control arms to the small ball joint pieces. Seems like a big hassle for very little gain.

 

[rmchrgr]

Did all the altered wheelbase cars have stainless K frames?

 

[topside]

I'll trust Cecil's memory - it's amazing. A lot of money was obviously spent on that program, so adapters or special parts would happen if they thought something would work.
The stories from those guys are pretty epic for how hard they worked.
Those cars were pretty light, and only intended for drag racing.

 

[rmchrgr]

I'll trust Cecil's memory - it's amazing. A lot of money was obviously spent on that program, so adapters or special parts would happen if they thought something would work.
The stories from those guys are pretty epic for how hard they worked.
Those cars were pretty light, and only intended for drag racing.

Fair enough. Guess you have to go through these kinds of exercises to prove what works and what doesn't.

It's wild to think this all happened within a year or so because in 1966 they were on to tube frames with removable fiberglass bodies.

 

[topside]

Part of it is they had some budget from the NASCAR side (the ban on Hemi B-bodies there) added to the advertising budget, and a racer's mindset: "whatever it takes".
Chrysler & FoMoCo were at war.

 

[Dave6T4]

I just saw a picture of a stainless steel K-member, displayed with Dick Landy,s '65 AWB. Maybe Detroit Autorama on past weekend?