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Cat in a crate or Build a 440?

Dubjitsu

Dubjitsu

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Ok newb here, so bare with me please. I bought 69 Coronet 500 (318 car) and want to start modding it. I plan on having at least 650hp. That said, I also want it to be a daily driver during the clear summer days and take it on road trips from time to time. I bought a 440 block and have a buddy that will help me build a motor but started thinking it might be better to just drop a new crate Hellcat motor in there. Aside from price (we figured we could build the 440 for about half the cost of a new Hellcat motor), what would be the major pros and cons of each option? I want something fun, reliable and FAST! Any input is appreciated. Thanks!
 
Honestly, my advice: GEN III 6.4 Hemi. These come up often and are very reasonable, they dyno around 430-440 rwhp in the LX cars, so probably closer to 390-410 rwhp in an older car with additional parasitic loss depending on the transmission/rear end used. There is probably 30-40HP untapped in a header swap alone along with an aggressive tune. If something goes wrong, pull into your nearest Chrysler dealership.

You'll spend well over $8,000-$10,000 building a carbureted 440 to make similar power to the GEN III 6.4 Hemi above.

I'm going to say you'll have $12,000+ to make a reliable & honest 650hp out of a 440/500+ci build. That is just in the engine, not the rest of the driveline.

Hellcat crate is nice (I think it's actually a decent value), but you're going to spend big $$$ on the chassis and drive-line to support 600+ rwhp.
 
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650 hp and derivable do not necessarily go together depending on what you mean by derivable
that said start looking a a BIG stroker kit with as little overbore as possible (keep strong)
The other was is with a blower- easy to be street able with that power level- still think stroker but less compression
the power is in the heads- unfortunately the heads (and cams) that make 650 easier tend to loose the low end so bvvc and not just go for the largest airflow
If you just want 650 every once in a while nitrus is the obvious answer
so define driveable- what trans and gears etc
 
Sweet5ltr said:
Honestly, my advice: GEN III 6.4 Hemi. These come up often and are very reasonable, they dyno around 430-440 rwhp in the LX cars, so probably closer to 390-410 rwhp in an older car with additional parasitic loss depending on the transmission/rear end used. There is probably 30-40HP untapped in a header swap alone along with an aggressive tune. If something goes wrong, pull into your nearest Chrysler dealership.

You'll spend well over $8,000-$10,000 building a carbureted 440 to make similar power to the GEN III 6.4 Hemi above.

I'm going to say you'll have $12,000+ to make a reliable & honest 650hp out of a 440/500+ci build. That is just in the engine, not the rest of the driveline.

Hellcat crate is nice (I think it's actually a decent value), but you're going to spend big $$$ on the chassis and drive-line to support 600+ rwhp.
Click to expand...
Agree, I got about 12k in my 505”, 700+- hp. Another 4K in my trans, another 3 grand in a strange s60 rear.
 
Wow....650+ hp and reliable....tough. If you have unlimited cash, then Hellcat. I'm not sure what the motor costs, but maybe another $15-$20k after you already own the Hellcat motor, assuming the car is in perfect condition & needs nothing except upgrades to handle the motor.

Otherwise, to be dependable, reliable & streetable.....500+ stroker motor that you can get 500-550hp out of and a honking big nitrous kit like wyrmrider said.
 
By all means it's not an easy thing to do. If you plan on using a 440 block then you will need to go big cubes. use a 4.375 crank with a good set of aluminum heads like tf and a decent cam you should do it while keeping it mild mannered. Get compression to 10.50 with aluminum heads and a cam like WYRMrider is good at picking out and your set. Now as far as the rest of the stock drivetrain well it will get beaten up with all that power you will make. Ill share my experience, I put together a 451 from a 400 block it's a street car. Cylinder pressure is 175 so I'm not a slave to 93 or 94 octane swill gets 12" vacuum so power brakes are manageable and it made over 600hp and torque. I can tell you from experience it's the nicest reeving big block I put together and I'm happy. Yes I could have bumped compression, bigger cam, single plane and head work and for sure I would have hit 650 but it would take away from the street manners. If I had to do it all over again I would have done a 470 with a 3.9 crank. It just has a sweet spot that is amazing and on a street engine you will be ecstatic. No heating issues, easier on parts just a nice engine. You can do that with a 440 block as well by offset grinding crank. Look up IQ52 and Andyf they have done engines like that and have been successful. They opened up my eyes and I ended up benefiting from it. Good luck on your build
 
And don’t forget, you’ll need to upgrade your brakes and suspension to handle that much power.
 
and hellcat is much lighter
either way
plan on tying your subframe together, pinion snubber and beef up the rear springs, larger torsion bars for street
if you plan on doing corners or mountain roads fast then 1.1 inch aftermarket torsions plus big sway bars front and rear
if you stay away from slicks you can build a reliable trans for not too much more dollars than a rebuild
better for your tires to go up in smoke than your tires and rear end/ axles etc
you will need new Ujoints MOPAR or DANA SPICER O N L Y and a drive shaft hoop
you will be surprised how much a stock HP converter will stall with all that torque so test it first to get a baseline before buying an expensive converter
you will at least need brazed fins and needle bearings -a B&B
do the thinking go around at least a couple of times
measure twice- cut once
 
Seen the HellCrate advertised for $14,998 + $2,195 for the front accessory drive kit.
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1115821_hellcat-crate-engine-can-be-had-for-big-discount
Some places have already sold the engines they had, so not sure how long a wait to get one, or if prices will come down later?
Really not a bad price for what your getting. Price the cost of adding a blower, port fuel injection, and DIS ignition to a big block that has been upgraded for that power level, and it likely would be more expensive.
I'm not up to date on the latest swap conversion parts, but the Riely Motorsports Alterkation front suspension/crossmember is around $5,000.
Some of the Alterkation suspension cost would be offset by what would have been spent rebuilding/upgrading the original cars suspension.

With a big block, NA engine, a stroker could be built for less if you use a carb or TBI fuel injection with a distributor.
Retrofitting port EFI to the older engines is still fairly expensive and can cost $4,000+
 
So, what everyone is saying is, either lower your expectations on a budget big-block that's running non-exotic hardware to make a realistic 550 (+/-) horsepower and survive on the street for under $10,000, or just go with a standard GEN III Hemi. The hellcrate is actually a good deal at $15,000, I know it doesn't seem like that (sticker shock), but that engine is producing 700+ hp on a base tune and has been extremely reliable so far in factory production cars. You're a tune and E85 away from making 800hp.

Just seen a 6.4 for sale with 7,000 miles for $6,000, non-mds engine. Those 6.4 Apache heads flow 340cfm from the factory, very close to what the new Trickflow 270 CNC ported heads are advertised to flow on a BBM which cost over $2,000 (then add $800-$1,000 for valvetrain). If you want more power with a 6.4, add a blower or procharger. There is no way on Earth I would build a complete big-block Mopar driveline from scratch in 2018, leave that to the purists.
 
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Thanks for all the replies! The cat in a crate is sounding better and better... Would I need to mate that to a modern transmission or can the stock one be suitable? I'm assuming the 8 1/4 rear would need to be replaced. Would I need to add torque boxes? I planned on doing suspension and brakes. Anything else I should plan on?
 
I haven't done a Gen III swap yet, but have been looking at it for a 6.1L. That HellCrate looks interesting, and fairly complete, but trying to see where the "hidden" costs might be? It looks like it does not come with the intercooler plumbing, pump and heat exchanger. It does have the exhaust manifolds, but I don't know if they fit the older cars or if they need to be changed. From the photos, it looks like it does come with a clutch and pressure plate for a manual transmission?

A big block at 550 to 600 HP is not that difficult to build for reliable street performance, but when talking greater than 650+ HP with no power adders, then your usually looking at fairly large cams, and low engine vacuum at idle. Also, for a fair comparison, the HellCrate is starting off with 707 HP and can be bumped up from there. If your really in this 700+ HP range with a big block, you should be considering using an aftermarket block.
 
does the hemi use the LA bellhousing bolt pattern and crank location
I've read it but not sure what I remember
I guess you could get a take out engine and trans with all the wiring and computer- you are going to have to have a computer to make a hemi work anyway
 
You can run a small-block 727 transmission with a GEN III Hemi. No TCM to worry about.

I would go:
6.4 Hemi - Carbed running a short Drag Pack 'Ritter' intake with MSD Hemi 6 controller.
SRT exhaust manifolds.
SB 727 transmission.

Easy 520-540 HP with the stock camshaft. Not touching anything else. Probably closer to 600 HP with a great camshaft. Mopar used to sell carbed 392's, claimed 540 HP with a single-four on a drag pack intake.

The only way additional cubes beats out a GEN III, is if they have great cylinder heads. Unfortunately, the 'good heads' cost a bundle for B/RB engines to setup and normally flow mediocre in comparison to other brands.
 
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That's what I thought but could not remember
you get to 518RH or later your into computers
Incidentally the new 8 speed ZF partnered trans is having virtually no warranty problems
some parts and special tools are hard to get but not a very big deal as they have not often been needed
If you do have a late ram BVVS you have parts in hand before even a service
from what I hear from the tech hot line GREAT TRANS
now the Merceedes trans used behind some 5.7- dam plate with the sensors- be sure you get factory (transtar has them_ Chinese plates are JUNK
friend is trying to fix a 715 code anyone else have any suggestions (turbine speed- input speed sensor) is on this plate but not available separately AFAIK
end offtopic rant
 
You say you want to drive it a lot... I wouldn't even consider a 727, nothing will make a bigger impact on your ability to rack up miles than an overdrive. My vote goes to the Hellcat drivetrain. I got to drive one last summer and if I had the money there's no question what I'd be putting in mine.
On the flip side I love the sound of a good ol Big Block with a slightly rough idle and enjoy tinkering on a car that's all mechanical with no computer so I'm on the fence with this one.
The $10,000-12,000 estimates for a 440 sound steep to me, maybe if your buying one or paying to have one built but doing it yourself? I've got $4,500 in my 400 based stroker but am only at about 500hp, that's a long ways from $10,000! In my case I already had the block and a complete rotating assembly out of a 440 including a forged crank.

It was driven 1 summer with the 727 which I loved (super quick snappy shifts) but once I put a 6 speed in it fun took on a whole new meaning plus I started doubling the miles I put on it and cut fuel efficiency nearly in half.
 
I'd likely put 8-10k/year on it. My original budget for the 440 build was to keep it under 10k not including the block I already have.The body work, paint and interior was all just done so it's just in need of mechanical upgrades. I do want creature comforts like AC, Power Steering, Cruise Control, etc.
 
747mopar said:
You say you want to drive it a lot... I wouldn't even consider a 727, nothing will make a bigger impact on your ability to rack up miles than an overdrive. My vote goes to the Hellcat drivetrain. I got to drive one last summer and if I had the money there's no question what I'd be putting in mine.
On the flip side I love the sound of a good ol Big Block with a slightly rough idle and enjoy tinkering on a car that's all mechanical with no computer so I'm on the fence with this one.
The $10,000-12,000 estimates for a 440 sound steep to me, maybe if your buying one or paying to have one built but doing it yourself? I've got $4,500 in my 400 based stroker but am only at about 500hp, that's a long ways from $10,000! In my case I already had the block and a complete rotating assembly out of a 440 including a forged crank.

It was driven 1 summer with the 727 which I loved (super quick snappy shifts) but once I put a 6 speed in it fun took on a whole new meaning plus I started doubling the miles I put on it and cut fuel efficiency nearly in half.
Click to expand...

727 is a direct install, fairly bulletproof, and relatively inexpensive. 4L80E (GM) transmission would also be a viable alternative, as it has overdrive. TR6060 (6-speed manual) is another great alternative, but good luck acquiring one along with all the hardware. TKO-600 would be another choice, probably $4,000-$5,000 for a complete kit.

$10,000-$12,000 easy for a 650hp B/RB engine, built from scratch. RB block is on borrowed time at that power level unless the tune is safe (which it won't for a max-effort build on pump gas). $2,200 for a rotating assembly. $2,000 for heads. $800-1,000 rocker arms. $1,000 solid roller cam and lifters. $300 distributor. $400 ignition box. $1,000 fuel system. $300 intake. $350 harmonic balancer. $800-$1,000 carburetor. Do I need to keep going? Add in a big chunk for it to be built at a professional shop and tuned on the dyno, as you would want, for an engine with this much invested. I would say past 500hp with a 440 RB, there is a point of diminishing returns on investment, it's not linear on $/hp. Other than head porting, it's tough to make good power for how much you pay. Look at AndyF, he had well over $1,500 in porting costs for a single intake manifold from Wilson to gain 30hp on a 470ci/700hp engine. On a 450hp engine, you could gain 10-20hp just from a 2" $30 carb spacer.

I love the big-blocks, I'm running a 470 low-deck, doesn't mean I would have done it if I didn't have 95% of the parts to swap over from my RB build along with my new 9.5" converter, driveshaft, and transmission. Everyone wonders how anyone has $20,000+ into a driveline, this is exactly how. It was different back in the 70's and 80's when factory 440's were readily available at any pull-a-part junkyard for a few dollars. The deal right now is with the GEN III Hemi. 500hp 392ci factory built engines going for $6,000. That's a steal.

At the end of the day, it just cost money to make power. Forced induction is a bit better, I helped a friend install a Paxton S/C on a 15' Coyote. It made 617rwhp on low boost, 100% stock other than injectors / boost-a-pump.
 
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I have been talking to Mike "Colorado Mopar" and he is doing a 4L80E behind a 383 / 496" stroker engine.
The engine is still being built so not sure what power it will be making, but it is a street engine, not race engine.
Not sure how much the engine is going to cost him?

My Convertible has the old Keisler 5-speed manual LGT-700 kit. It is nice having the overdrive ratio. I think cost was around $4,000 with all the options?
http://legendgt.com/Products/lgt-700/
The 440 / 505" stroker in the convertible might make about 550 HP? (never dynoed it), but it has a mild hydraulic roller cam and is very street friendly. I haven't added the costs on it to the penny, and I have made changes to it. When I first built it, I has the stock V-Belt pulleys and accessories, along with the RPM intake and Holley carb to save money (I'd guess about 7,500+.) Over the years I added the Billet Specialities Tru-Track with A/C, PS pump, and 140 amp alternator. That was an expensive upgrade, about $3,500 with PS Reservoir, plumbing, and matching radiator overflow tank, that also resulted in going to electric cooling fans and controller that cost even more $$$.
Then I went from carb to Edelbrock XT port EFI, and that conversion got really expensive because I started with the XT kit that ras almost $4,000 to begin with but the non-wideband controller was very basic, could not even control the cooling fans, so I put a FAST XFI 2.0 computer on it and that was around another $3,000 with new dual sync dist and wiring. I know I'm crazy with over $10K in the accessory drive and EFI, not counting the engine, although a did sell the water pump assembly (the tru-track comes with a new one), stand-alone dist, intake and carb that were on the original engine. Just trying to show that the basic engine in this build was less than the accessories and induction system, and it is not even boosted. Look at the cost of putting a blower on an engine, it looks like about 1/2 the cost of the HellCrate engine is the supercharger system?

After seeing what I spent on the serpentine belt drive, accessories and EFI, I picked up a complete takeout 2008 6.1L Hemi, with NAG transmission off E-Bay for $4,000 and I plan to use it to swap into another project, but I'm still looking at transmission options as the few NAG controllers are expensive.
 
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