GM claims ownership of your cars software

[snakeyes]

[video]http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/20/general-motors-says-owns-your-car-software/[/video]

 

[Hemi Rebel]

Good, now every gm car involved in an accident can claim it was faulty software and its gm's fault the accident happened.

 

[snakeoil24]

Gm needs to pay close attention to improving the share price of their stock now. The price has been around 35.00 for over 10 years. Yes it does pay a 4% dividend but a price of 75.00 is what it should be selling at. In addition they need to work on new models and upgrades to cadillac and reintroduction of Pontiac for their Performance line..

 

[2059]

John Deere made a pitch to the Government recently regarding a similar issue except Deere is saying; because they own the software, they own the tractor. Sort-of...

http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/

 

[TekHousE]

What's wrong with this? Of course they own it. they paid for its' development.

 

[cr8crshr]

Proprietary rights are far different than tangible rights. If I have the vehicle then it is mine. They can have their so called software all they want. Just remove it from my vehicle is all they need to claim as it being theirs. They can have it. As for Generic Motors? Well this is a MOPAR specific Board so I pay very little attention to their POS products...Just My 2 Cents...cr8crshr/Tuck

 

[snakeyes]

sorry guys I posted this so all can read it ,all the auto makers feel this way ,if you want delete it

 

[MarPar]

they paid for its' development.

true, but we paid them for the product they put that development into...

 

[Budnicks]

Govt. Motors

Just like a big entitlement bureaucracy/govt. entity,
always overstepping their boundaries,
forcing something on the general public,
they don't want or even ever need...
seems like a status quo


The word "greed" comes to mind...

 

[Bb70charger500]

Ah this is good info leave it up. People need to see this. It's not only g.m. it's all of them. G.m. is just the loudest about it the rest are hoping you don't read the fine print.
I say as long as they maintain the software and update it ,for free its fine this doesn't mean you can't work on your cars you can change and replace parts like belts water pumps and so on you just can't change the set parameters in the software witch I wouldn't do anyways it causes to many problems. But if they want to charge you a yearly fee or something they can shove it . I like driving my old cars better anyways

 

[TekHousE]

true, but we paid them for the product they put that development into...

That's not how software works. If it was, every update you got for your car when it is serviced would cost you 1,000 dollars. Think about it.

 

[MarPar]

That's not how software works. If it was, every update you got for your car when it is serviced would cost you 1,000 dollars. Think about it.

no no, Tek. I get what your saying about the software.

But what about a laptop or desktop computer? You pay for the licensing rights for Windows' software, right? Microsoft doesn't claim to own your computer.

 

[TekHousE]

no no, Tek. I get what your saying about the software.

But what about a laptop or desktop computer? You pay for the licensing rights for Windows' software, right? Microsoft doesn't claim to own your computer.

And they are not claiming ownership to your car.

Listen up, full disclosure I worked for GM for years in Australia from factory floor to management levels. They own the software.

There is nothing stopping owners of the latest cars changing software. It is done all the time. I did it to my Audi's. But if the dealer finds it, all bets are off on your warranty. So GM are right. When you take any car with a computer in it to service many times software is updated as a standard procedure.

If you want ownership of it (and that won't happen anyway, but for sake of this argument) then you will need to pay for your share of it. The car industry has hidden/absorbed this cost from owners for years. But with cars becoming more and more reliant on software I can fully understand manufacturers wanting to ensure that the integrity of their vehicles, INCLUDING the software that makes it run, are working how they intended them to. So change it if you want, at the sacrifice of your warranty, but don't mess with the factory installs.

I didn't comment on the laptop/pc comment, it has no relevance to this situation.

 

[MarPar]

ok, I see what you're saying now. disregard the laptop comment then.

I agree that the warranty should null and void if you mess with any of the ECU's (as it's been for years-even with the original OBD); but what I got out of the article is that because the car cannot run without said ECU's, that you do not actually own the car because they own the rights to the software, ergo the car itself.

 

[2059]

TeK, With all due respect to your knowledge and service at GM, I disagree. Being in the manufacturing business, I too understand the ownership of development of intellectual property, via copyright laws in the United States however; the cost of that process is built into the cost of the product to the dealer and passed to the consumer. Ergo, the "ownership" of the "copy " of the software is thereby licensed to the "hardware" owner via the retail purchase price and implied through the purchase agreement.

Changing the software by anyone but the development engineers, factory certified technicians, or, in this case, dealerships, should void the warrantee however; as previously stated.

If I paid for the car/tractor, I own the copy of that software and the hardware that goes with it. Make no mistake, this is not about software ownership. It's about control...

 

[Hemi Rebel]

I have a question, what happens when you buy a car second hand from a private party? No agreement will be signed in that case.

 

[TekHousE]

TeK, With all due respect to your knowledge and service at GM, I disagree. Being in the manufacturing business, I too understand the ownership of development of intellectual property, via copyright laws in the United States however; the cost of that process is built into the cost of the product to the dealer and passed to the consumer. Ergo, the "ownership" of the "copy " of the software is thereby licensed to the "hardware" owner via the retail purchase price and implied through the purchase agreement.

Changing the software by anyone but the development engineers, factory certified technicians, or, in this case, dealerships, should void the warrantee however; as previously stated.

If I paid for the car/tractor, I own the copy of that software and the hardware that goes with it. Make no mistake, this is not about software ownership. It's about control...

Yes you own the right to USE THAT CURRENT ORIGINALLY INSTALLED COPY..Nothing more. And no, the cost of developing software is not necessarily built in to the car. it MIGHT be, but you will never verify that either way. A lot of cars on the road have not broken even on R&D yet. Car manufacturers understand this, and also know that features and function drive sales, always. You have to understand the industry better to see the big picture. MAKING cars is not profitable really, SELLING FINANCE to dealers and eventual owners is. The industry is complicated and money is derived from a number of sources. Sales are everything, without features no sales, without integration to effing Facebook these days might be a deal breaker. Software, by default is ever changing as a result...But back to the software you think you PURCHASED..

But your car cannot run forever on that initial install.

Look this is a moot point. They own it, they are maintaining it, and your license is as a user only. By the way which is EXACTLY the same for any software. Since if you actually read the huge terms and conditions of installing anything you will see that alteration or reverse engineering of it is prohibited.

The racing company that programs our Rally X car has talented programmers that were able to alter my software on my last Audi so well, that the dealership never even discovered it. But when I traded the car, my salesman took it for a quick drive and came back smiling asking me what I did to it. I told him I can revert it and even Audi's own diagnostics's will not know it was ever in the car. But the act of doing it was still a warranty voiding one.

 

[2059]

Yes you own the right to USE THAT CURRENT ORIGINALLY INSTALLED COPY..Nothing more. And no, the cost of developing software is not necessarily built in to the car. it MIGHT be, but you will never verify that either way. A lot of cars on the road have not broken even on R&D yet. Car manufacturers understand this, and also know that features and function drive sales, always. You have to understand the industry better to see the big picture. MAKING cars is not profitable really, SELLING FINANCE to dealers and eventual owners is. The industry is complicated and money is derived from a number of sources. Sales are everything, without features no sales, without integration to effing Facebook these days might be a deal breaker. Software, by default is ever changing as a result...But back to the software you think you PURCHASED..


But your car cannot run forever on that initial install.

Look this is a moot point. They own it, they are maintaining it, and your license is as a user only. By the way which is EXACTLY the same for any software. Since if you actually read the huge terms and conditions of installing anything you will see that alteration or reverse engineering of it is prohibited.

The racing company that programs our Rally X car has talented programmers that were able to alter my software on my last Audi so well, that the dealership never even discovered it. But when I traded the car, my salesman took it for a quick drive and came back smiling asking me what I did to it. I told him I can revert it and even Audi's own diagnostics's will not know it was ever in the car. But the act of doing it was still a warranty voiding one.

I enjoyed our discussion Tek, and your right that I did not purchase the software; I purchased a COPY of the software. Just the same as I purchased a COPY of the vehicle itself to use. I paid their asking price, and by law, own the entire COPY. responsibility to maintain the mechanical portion and/or the software portion of the copy is mine. Either through the dealer or, after wtty expires, an independent shop if I choose. All of which one pays for at time of service. What's happening here is an attempt to eliminate ownership, by extension, and therefore individual choice and freedom.

This discussion will get lawyered to death and it will only complicate life a little more. I'll stick to building my '64.

 

[TekHousE]

I enjoyed our discussion Tek, and your right that I did not purchase the software; I purchased a COPY of the software. Just the same as I purchased a COPY of the vehicle itself to use. I paid their asking price, and by law, own the entire COPY. responsibility to maintain the mechanical portion and/or the software portion of the copy is mine. Either through the dealer or, after wtty expires, an independent shop if I choose. All of which one pays for at time of service. What's happening here is an attempt to eliminate ownership, by extension, and therefore individual choice and freedom.

This discussion will get lawyered to death and it will only complicate life a little more. I'll stick to building my '64.

Yep, stick to the old cars..And with new cars if you actually read (and understand) their contracts and conditions of purchase you will be amazed at how much you DON'T own! ;) It certainly is one for the lawyers. Lastly, if you buy a car OUTRIGHT, you still do not own ALL of what went in to it, as far as doing whatever you want with that part or software etc. The IP restrictions on selling certain technology to banned countries for example. At the end of the day no one is going to test the car manufacturers on this, unless they have deep pockets. ;)

 

[2059]

I have a question, what happens when you buy a car second hand from a private party? No agreement will be signed in that case.

You're right. at this point in time, In the United States, if the warrantee is still in effect it transfers with the vehicle (unless otherwise started in the original purchase agreement from the manufacturers representative, I.E. the dealer). As for ownership of the software; one is buying a copy of the software, just like they are buying a copy of the car and ownership of that copy is "in total". And that's what the big manufacturers are arguing against.

To keep pulling this string; Does that mean that Mobil owns the 6 quarts of "Mobil One" in the engine and therefore the car? They developed it... Does Dupont own the Color Coat and Clear Coat on the exterior and therefore the car? Their chemists developed and formulated it... Better yet, does BASF own the exterior protection and therefore the car? Their chemists developed the base additives... This could go on and on. The issue at hand is; you Manufacturer employed workers developing the software for these cars and they are getting a little sideways when it comes to the whole "Ownership" concept.

It will all get lawyered to death....