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Help with pinion angle

Mopar4Speed

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Hi guys, need some help with a driveline angle and wanted to know if I am close or have a good setup already. So the car is a 66 coronet 340, 4 speed and 742 8 3/4" rear. I am using the mp hemi RH leaf springs on both sides. Measurements were taken on a level surface with all wheels supporting the weight of the car.
So the measurements i took are:
Crank pulley 2* down
Trans output 2* down
Pinion 0*
Thanks in advance
 
Crank pulley - insignificant.
You're missing some important angles.
See below

"According to Currie, the average car crafter should strive for between 1 and 3 degrees between the tailshaft of the transmission and driveshaft, and 1 to 3 degrees between the driveshaft and pinion. Furthermore, the two angles should be nearly equal (between 1 and 3 degrees), but always opposite (see crude diagram).
1710779777940.png
 
I went through hell with my 73 Road Runner for a number of years. It had a driveline vibration.

A lot of information about pinion angle deals with cars that do not have leaf springs. Bottom line is that for leaf springs, a good target is 4* down for engine and transmission (they are the same), and 4* also down for the pinion angle.

Good Luck

EDIT: After further discussions and finding my old thread (see discussion below), it seems that I misremembered the degrees. I should have said "a good target is 3* down for engine and transmission (they are the same), and 3* also down for the pinion angle"
 
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^ So an 8 degree operating angle on the u-joint? Oof.

Mopar4Speed- You have a 2 degree operating angle of the u-joint which should about zero out under load as the pinion climbs the ring gear.

I would leave it as-is.
 
Crank pulley - insignificant.
I know they are the same as the crank centerline is the same at the trans output but i used to verify i had the correct measurement at the trans
 
I went through hell with my 73 Road Runner for a number of years. It had a driveline vibration.

A lot of information about pinion angle deals with cars that do not have leaf springs. Bottom line is that for leaf springs, a good target is 4* down for engine and transmission (they are the same), and 4* also down for the pinion angle.

Good Luck
Interesting, most stuff i read said it always had to be opposite of each other. Did that solve your issue entirely?
 
^ So an 8 degree operating angle on the u-joint? Oof.

Mopar4Speed- You have a 2 degree operating angle of the u-joint which should about zero out under load as the pinion climbs the ring gear.

I would leave it as-is.
Fair enough, i was hearing alot about axle wind up and that most point the diff down. I was suprised that I had a neutral 0* reading. I thought the angles should be close because i used stock and mp parts.
 
Forgot to mention that I'm running a 1350 yoke front and back with a 3.5" tube. Not sure if that matters..
 
^ So an 8 degree operating angle on the u-joint? Oof.

Mopar4Speed- You have a 2 degree operating angle of the u-joint which should about zero out under load as the pinion climbs the ring gear.

I would leave it as-is.
Remember that our Mopars have leaf springs and pinion snubbers. There is a good reason for the pinion snubbers because the pinion rotates up under load.

A Chevy 4 link holds the pinion at a constant angle. For those applications you want the engine and transmission down a few degrees (I've read 2-4*) and the pinion UP the same 2-4*. This so that a line drawn through the engine and trans will be parallel to the line through the pinion angle. But this does not work on our Mopars. Instead, the pinion should be DOWN and not up.

Yes, on our Mopars the "resting" angles do not match that at all.


Interesting, most stuff i read said it always had to be opposite of each other. Did that solve your issue entirely?
I solved it 95%.

Briefly, the 73 has this isolated crap suspension and when I restored the car in the early 90's, I bought a set of Mopar performance springs. This screwed up the geometry of my driveline. Since the whole car had been apart, there were all kinds of theories: engine in balance, drive shaft, etc.
I found out my pinion was pointing up a couple of degrees. Long story short, I put 6 degrees of shims in it to force the pinion down and the problem was then almost all gone. I think it could have used a degree or two more.

I posted about it somewhere. If I can find it, I'll post the link.
 
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HawkRod, maybe I'm missing it but here you said 4 degrees engine down 4 degrees pinion down.

In your thread you said "Now I haven't remeasured my driveline angles, but based on the angles I measured before, I should now be at about 2.0* down for engine/ trans, and 2.6* down on my pinion."

...and you still have some vibration.

Yes the pinion will rotate some, but not 8 degrees unless you have some seriously weak leaf springs.

OP's car under acceleration should be damn near perfect as far as u-joint cancellation and not so far off that it would vibrate under cruise, just as it is.

Just my opinion. :)
 
HawkRod, maybe I'm missing it but here you said 4 degrees engine down 4 degrees pinion down.

In your thread you said "Now I haven't remeasured my driveline angles, but based on the angles I measured before, I should now be at about 2.0* down for engine/ trans, and 2.6* down on my pinion."

...and you still have some vibration.

Yes the pinion will rotate some, but not 8 degrees unless you have some seriously weak leaf springs.

OP's car under acceleration should be damn near perfect as far as u-joint cancellation and not so far off that it would vibrate under cruise, just as it is.

Just my opinion. :)
So first, thanks for carrying on a conversation like adults without resorting to name calling. :thumbsup: It's a shame so many threads break down to that!

1) I acknowledge my memory of what I read and what I wrote in my final results do not match.
My final results (last link in post #10) say that driveline should be down 3* and pinion should also be down 3*. That is a 6* difference. I acknowledge that I wrote 4 and 4 above in my post #3. That was from memory and perhaps 4 is on the high side. I will go up and edit that as I will plead the old and potentially forgetful routine on the 4*.
...But the fact remains that experts way more knowledgeable than me state both the driveline and the pinion should be down.

I will absolutely not claim any expertise in this area. As a matter of fact, as seen in my thread from 2022, I struggled with this issue A LOT. But the full story of my driveline vibration went back YEARS. I rebuilt engines, balanced drive shafts, replaced axles, swapped wheels, etc. You name it, and I tried it. I also finally tried shimming the pinion UP. Shimming the pinion up caused the problem to get worse, but it was the first experiment that measurably changed the vibration. When I then shimmed it down, the vibration first improved, and then with more shims it essentially went away. Yes, there was a tiny bit left at high speeds, but my thought on that is that I didn't quite shim it enough.

As far as my measurements: These were what I was able to measure. However, I am sure there could be some error in my measurements. It is not necessarily easy to get good contact points to measure the angles.

Since the OP has not yet tried his car and doesn't have actual results, I agree with your suggestion to "try it and see". But if he has any vibrations, I would suggest to shim the pinion down another couple of degrees.
 
Why do people contradict a very clear professional opinion that includes a diagram that a three-year old can understand ?!?!
 
Since the OP has not yet tried his car and doesn't have actual results, I agree with your suggestion to "try it and see". But if he has any vibrations, I would suggest to shim the pinion down another couple of degrees.

I actually I have driven the car about 600 or so miles and there isnt really a vibration unless im doing around 85-90mph (which is more likely wheel balance i think) What i do have is an issue with is when the car is hot and trying to reverse up a hill it feels like something is binding and causing the clutch to shudder rather violetly. I thought maybe the pinion and trans angle might have been causing it but i guess my issue is elsewhere.
 
Down or up is viewed with the known reference point of the car being the front to rear direction applicable to both the transmission and the rear axle.
I probably have not explained this well but it is very important point to working out the correct driveline angles.
Post #2 is spot on and shows both trans and rear axle 2 degrees DOWN using the reference of front to rear.
To work out the important universal joint operating angle you would also need to know the angle of the driveshaft.
 
You want the crank/trans C/L parallel to the pinion C/L under load. Driveshaft angle means nothing. You always want the pinion C/L to be pointing lower than the crank C/L due to axle housing rotation. The type of rear suspension and severity of acceleration will determine how far the housing rotates upward. Good rule of thumb for the street. Leaf 2-3 degrees Drag 5-6 degrees. Ladder bar 1.5 degrees. 4 link 1.0 degree. These numbers represent the difference betwen the C/L of the engine/ trans and the pinion. Its that simple. To the original question in Post #1. His angle is 2 degrees down. For a street car that's a good starting point.
Doug
 
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Why do people contradict a very clear professional opinion that includes a diagram that a three-year old can understand ?!?!
I'm not sure anyone is contradicting your diagram.

But here is a diagram that expands on the angles. I don't have a clearer picture of it - this was provided by @1 Wild R/T some time ago. I have stated, and will continue to state, that when I followed this (first diagram in picture below), that it finally solved my issue. This wasn't written by me, but by other experts.

pinion2.JPG


On the other hand, when I tried to set my pinion up, I got vibration.
 
I think an important thing to remember in this discussion is the way you would set up a race car is different to a street car.
 
I think an important thing to remember in this discussion is the way you would set up a race car is different to a street car.
Yes the car is only a street car, spirited driven very often
 
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