696pack
Well-Known Member
I hope most of you take the time to read this because it effects ALL of us in some way weather you are a NUMBERS GUY OR NOT.
The below quote is from member 68383GTS from another thread that I did not want to highjack so I started this new one.
"I would not buy a true Mopar Muscle car without a fender tag and or a buildsheet."
I see more and more of this all the time and find it disturbing.
Now let me start by saying I am not telling you or anyone else what is right or wrong with regards to what you find important when making YOUR buying decision, only to condider the below regarding how these things are viewed throughout the hobby by others. People that are so concerned with a fender tag or broadcast sheet may be overlooking a true gem.
1. Fender tags are reproduced all the time and it is now easy to have them done so they are undetectable from an original. So how are you going to know?
2. Many cars NEVER had a CORRECT B/S for the car in it in the first place, this is especially true of the LA built cars. So with this in mind, are we supposed to DEVALUE cars that never had one to begin with? Is this fair? Isn't it the same thing as devaluing a car for not having a particular option rather than ADDING value to a car that has it?
3. Mopar people are luck that the V.I.N. tells use the exact model and engine the car was originally built with. These are the key things that determine 95%of the value of a given car. On top of this for MOST 67 back cars have the IBM card on file still at Chrysler Historical for a nominal fee. If you think that liberties are taken (read fake cars or options added) are such a concern in the Mopar world, take a look at most GM cars. They don't have the luxury of having a telling V.I.N. and in most cases only denote if it is a V-8 or 6 cylinder car. Fake cars that are undetectable run rampant with them as well as repoed documentation.
4. The reason most people tell you they want a FT or B/S is so they don't overpay for a car that may not currently be they way it came from the factory.
I have said this time and time again. There are only a few things that are spelled out on either a FT or B/S that really make it easy for the novice to assure themselves of. The trans and the N96 option regardless of what car it is installed on. E.G. a shaker hood for an E body. These are about the only items that are really of concern regarding if they were factory installed or not. WHY?? Because in all other cases the cost of buying the parts and the cost of labor outweigh the ADDED value of the option. This is true even with the 4 speed unless it is on a very high dollar car, as the values of the 4 speed is generally a 5% add over an auto on a given car.
5. If you are knowledgable about the car you are looking at, you can typically tell if the trans has been changed.
6. Unless a car has been completely stripped and dipped there is ALWAYS hidden paint that will tell you what the original color was. An interior color change is much easier to hide.
7. People are now more aware of what makes a difference in the VALUE of the cars and the options. However, there are many other things that people THINK make a difference in the values that really don't, at least in the eyes of the people that provide the money to buy them such as finance companies, and the people that insure these cars. Many people put a big value on color, but you won't find a single value guide or entity mentioned above that will add any value to a car for a particular color.
8. Documentation is now mentioned in some collector car value guides but they still don't assign any value to it. In the same blurb they also address many other things such as modified cars and how they are being viewed in the hobby today. Attached is a page from a price guide I use that describes the grading process. Take special note of the area that speaks of ORIGINALITY. You may be surprised at what and how the hobby is looking at today in terms of value such as resto mods.
9. RESTO MODS
As an example I personally monitor the sales activity of 66-67 Hemi cars and 69 A12 cars because that is what I own. At the height of the market (in terms of value) the highest price paid for an A12 car was a Super Bee for $216K. The car did not have the original engine, had been upgraded to disc brakes, and had been resurrected from totaled, burned car. On top of that, it was RUMORED (and I have researched this and don't believe it to be true) that it was rebodied. This car could be considered to be a resto mod of sorts since one of the key items that was A12 specific are the 11" DRUM brakes that were standard and DISC brakes were not available.
The point to this is that ALL of these cars have value based on there BONES to someone and more and more the values are turning to the actual QUALITY AND APPEARANCE of the car rather than how correct is is to the fender tag or broadcast sheet.
10. In closing, I always value a Mopar based on the V.I.N. and what it tells me. Any options are a bonus and I value them at the MOST based on the cost to add them and this is ONLY if it is an option I care about having on the car. it makes things a lot simpler and easier to sleep.:grin:
The below quote is from member 68383GTS from another thread that I did not want to highjack so I started this new one.
"I would not buy a true Mopar Muscle car without a fender tag and or a buildsheet."
I see more and more of this all the time and find it disturbing.
Now let me start by saying I am not telling you or anyone else what is right or wrong with regards to what you find important when making YOUR buying decision, only to condider the below regarding how these things are viewed throughout the hobby by others. People that are so concerned with a fender tag or broadcast sheet may be overlooking a true gem.
1. Fender tags are reproduced all the time and it is now easy to have them done so they are undetectable from an original. So how are you going to know?
2. Many cars NEVER had a CORRECT B/S for the car in it in the first place, this is especially true of the LA built cars. So with this in mind, are we supposed to DEVALUE cars that never had one to begin with? Is this fair? Isn't it the same thing as devaluing a car for not having a particular option rather than ADDING value to a car that has it?
3. Mopar people are luck that the V.I.N. tells use the exact model and engine the car was originally built with. These are the key things that determine 95%of the value of a given car. On top of this for MOST 67 back cars have the IBM card on file still at Chrysler Historical for a nominal fee. If you think that liberties are taken (read fake cars or options added) are such a concern in the Mopar world, take a look at most GM cars. They don't have the luxury of having a telling V.I.N. and in most cases only denote if it is a V-8 or 6 cylinder car. Fake cars that are undetectable run rampant with them as well as repoed documentation.
4. The reason most people tell you they want a FT or B/S is so they don't overpay for a car that may not currently be they way it came from the factory.
I have said this time and time again. There are only a few things that are spelled out on either a FT or B/S that really make it easy for the novice to assure themselves of. The trans and the N96 option regardless of what car it is installed on. E.G. a shaker hood for an E body. These are about the only items that are really of concern regarding if they were factory installed or not. WHY?? Because in all other cases the cost of buying the parts and the cost of labor outweigh the ADDED value of the option. This is true even with the 4 speed unless it is on a very high dollar car, as the values of the 4 speed is generally a 5% add over an auto on a given car.
5. If you are knowledgable about the car you are looking at, you can typically tell if the trans has been changed.
6. Unless a car has been completely stripped and dipped there is ALWAYS hidden paint that will tell you what the original color was. An interior color change is much easier to hide.
7. People are now more aware of what makes a difference in the VALUE of the cars and the options. However, there are many other things that people THINK make a difference in the values that really don't, at least in the eyes of the people that provide the money to buy them such as finance companies, and the people that insure these cars. Many people put a big value on color, but you won't find a single value guide or entity mentioned above that will add any value to a car for a particular color.
8. Documentation is now mentioned in some collector car value guides but they still don't assign any value to it. In the same blurb they also address many other things such as modified cars and how they are being viewed in the hobby today. Attached is a page from a price guide I use that describes the grading process. Take special note of the area that speaks of ORIGINALITY. You may be surprised at what and how the hobby is looking at today in terms of value such as resto mods.
9. RESTO MODS
As an example I personally monitor the sales activity of 66-67 Hemi cars and 69 A12 cars because that is what I own. At the height of the market (in terms of value) the highest price paid for an A12 car was a Super Bee for $216K. The car did not have the original engine, had been upgraded to disc brakes, and had been resurrected from totaled, burned car. On top of that, it was RUMORED (and I have researched this and don't believe it to be true) that it was rebodied. This car could be considered to be a resto mod of sorts since one of the key items that was A12 specific are the 11" DRUM brakes that were standard and DISC brakes were not available.
The point to this is that ALL of these cars have value based on there BONES to someone and more and more the values are turning to the actual QUALITY AND APPEARANCE of the car rather than how correct is is to the fender tag or broadcast sheet.
10. In closing, I always value a Mopar based on the V.I.N. and what it tells me. Any options are a bonus and I value them at the MOST based on the cost to add them and this is ONLY if it is an option I care about having on the car. it makes things a lot simpler and easier to sleep.:grin:
