• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

interesting A-12 forsale ???

I believe that 574 area code is for Indiana. i wonder why its on phoenix craigslsit? I would love to have the Bee its a great color combo for a A12 car or any 69 Bee for that matter.
Matt
 
I talked to the guy. He put it in the Phoenix listing to catch the B.J. people, which he said he did. Basically the entire underside of the car needs to be replaced......frame rails front and rear, trunk, and floors.
 
Yup. I talked to the guy. Talked for about 30 minutes. He's wanting to sell both cars as a package, and really isn't interested in selling the Bee without the Daytona going first. As far as price, he wants more than I do for Agent J.
 
I talked to the guy. He put it in the Phoenix listing to catch the B.J. people, which he said he did. Basically the entire underside of the car needs to be replaced......frame rails front and rear, trunk, and floors.


I'm not sure if I'm asking an ethical question or not, but I have a 69 440 series that is original B5 blue with white vinyl top. Now, it is painted white and needs some lipstick, but it is a solid car. (I have pictures posted here.)

If I was to buy this A12 car and use mine to help restore it, where is the grey area in what parts go towards what car? Should I move the tags and anything of A12 relevance to my car? Would it be still be authentic? It would seem a heck of a lot more work to put my car towards the rough A12. It got me thinking of how much original metal do you need before you can hold you head high and say this is still my A12 car?

I hope I'm getting my point across right. I've just confused myself:edgy:
 
I'm not sure if I'm asking an ethical question or not, but I have a 69 440 series that is original B5 blue with white vinyl top. Now, it is painted white and needs some lipstick, but it is a solid car. (I have pictures posted here.)

If I was to buy this A12 car and use mine to help restore it, where is the grey area in what parts go towards what car? Should I move the tags and anything of A12 relevance to my car? Would it be still be authentic? It would seem a heck of a lot more work to put my car towards the rough A12. It got me thinking of how much original metal do you need before you can hold you head high and say this is still my A12 car?

I hope I'm getting my point across right. I've just confused myself:edgy:



If I were in your position and I purchased the A12, I would do it the right and the ethical way, I would scrap the 440 and move the parts from it to the A12, I WOULD NOT MOVE THE TAGS, It's not the easiest way, but it's the RIGHT way. and it definitely not the cheapest way,........sometimes the right way isn't the easiest and the cheapest, but I would rather be able to hold my head high and say "Yeah, it's a REAL A12" even if I had to sacrifice a 440 to save it.
 
The fender tag is screwed on, it unscrews. But, hang onto the baby!! There are VIN stampings all over the car, those you'd have to ID and or change. But, that's a gray area!
 
You move the numbers, you've committed a felony

What's worse than that is that then you have FAKED an A12 ! :no:


I don't mind Clones or Tributes as long as it is known that that are what they are, .........but I hate Fakes, ........they Destroy the Hobby that I Love. MOPARS.
 
If I were in your position and I purchased the A12, I would do it the right and the ethical way, I would scrap the 440 and move the parts from it to the A12, I WOULD NOT MOVE THE TAGS, It's not the easiest way, but it's the RIGHT way. and it definitely not the cheapest way,........sometimes the right way isn't the easiest and the cheapest, but I would rather be able to hold my head high and say "Yeah, it's a REAL A12" even if I had to sacrifice a 440 to save it.


Spot on :yes:

Search the forum because there is a lot of discussion about this topic.

I know it's tempting but it's not right.
 
I posted this long ago on another site.

I titled it "THE PERPETUIAL REBODY DEBATE."



FOR THE PEOPLE THAT BELIEVE REBODYING IS WRONG

Many people in the hobby feel that there is a big difference in the way people "restore" a car, ESPECIALLY a unibody.

They believe that the unibody is the core or soul of the car.

They believe that when the car was created by the manufacturer, that the numbers that were assigned to that particular unibody, and the assortment of parts that were assigned to and installed on it to create the model they were disignating are sacred. That no one else outside of the manufacturer has the right to do a V.I.N. switch (which did happen when these cars were new before they ever left the final assembly line) on any of these cars for any reason.

They believe that IF the car is what they consider to be salvagable by repairing existing body parts or installing new, reproduction, or good used parts, that is the only legal/ethical way to restore the car and maintain the heritage/originality of the car that the original manufacturer built.

They feel that when a car is rusted/damaged to the point that there is little left of the original unibody that the car should be scrapped and taken out of existence.

They believe this is not just a matter of legalities but also a matter of ethics.

They believe that even if it IS legal on a Federal level and in many States, that it is still unethical and morally wrong.

They feel that restoration by rebody is NOT a restoration at all but rather a fraud created on the hobby and any line of ownership after the rebody takes place.

They feel that even when disclosure is made by the party that did the rebody, to the next person that purchases the car, that it is still unacceptable. They feel that it is all to likely that somewhere down the line in years to come with the ownership changes of the car that this will NOT be disclosed to future buyers.

Many are adamant about their belief that switching V.I.N. tags to another similar car/unibody and associated hidden I.D. numbers is just plain wrong, legal or not. Regardless of how CORRECT the car may appear, with all of the correct componants that the factory would have installed on a like unibody, it is not the same as when the factory did it, and that THEY (the original manufacturer) are the only ones that had the right to do so.

They consider all rebodies to be nothing more than a clone with the identity numbers from another car.

They believe that a registry of any KNOWN rebodies and any SUSPECTED rebodied should be kept for any future buyers to be aware of to aid in their buying decision.

Before we go to the other side of the arguement, the below information needs to be considered.



THE CATCH 22

Most feel the real problem is that there is no definition of where the line is with regards to the restoration of a unibody car.

At what point does the car cross the line from what has been described above as a restoration rather than a rebody?

How much of the original unibody has to be left for new, reproduction, or good used parts to be attached to?

How big of a CHUNK of a donor car can you use in this restoration before it is considered a rebody?

Does the simple act of removing the V.I.N. plate from one car or part of the car constitute a rebody?

What about removing the V.I.N. plate because the part of the car that it is attached to is damaged? Does this constitute a rebody?

Does a car that was front or rear "clipped" by a bodyshop 30+ years ago constitute a partial rebody?

If a car was first FRONT clipped and a year later REAR clipped, does this constitute a complete rebody?

All good questions with no answers that probably any two people will agree on.

This is why so many people have mixed feeling about the restoration/rebody arguement.



FOR THE PEOPLE THAT BELIEVE THAT A REBODY IS AN ACCEPTABLE FORM OF RESTORATION

These people do not believe the car or unibody has a soul, or that the car is sacred. They do not hold the manufacturer in a Godly manner and assume that none of the factory line workers were any kind of Saints.

They believe that the base unibody is the same for a given car line (e.g. "A", "B", "C", or "E" body) and it is just an assembly of parts added to this base unibody that creates the particular price class. These are terms that Chrysler created for their cars.

These people believe that IF the manufacturer had the right to switch V.I.N.s of a car that they built, that an individual has the same right, provided that they legally own both cars involved in the rebody.

The manufacturer did this in the interest of "saving" a car, rather than scrapping it, for purely financial reasons. If they mistakenly built a car that somehow did not meet the criteria of what the V.I.N. model designation indicated, they took the path of least cost to convert it to a different model and made a V.I.N. plate switch that reflected that. Did you ever wonder why the HIDDEN V.I.N. numbers don't have the FULL V.I.N. stamped in them? It left flexability for the manufacturer to make V.I.N./model changes when the car was near completion.

The people that believe in rebodying, do so for the same reason, because it is financially less costly.

These people also sometimes do so in the interest of safety when they have a car that they want to save that may have serious body deformation or serious rust problems in the unibody.

These people believe that they are also saving the heritage of the car by doing so.

These people feel that it is better to have a donor car that is as the factory built, and without damage, to transplant the parts that were factory installed specific parts that made up the identity of the car they want to save.

They believe that it is legal on a Federal level and cite the Federal Law from the Cornell University Law Library in the link below as their proof.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I.html


There are some states that have their own laws regarding if and how moving V.I.N.s can be done and if you read the Federal law you will see that they call this out in the law.
 
696pack, and others:

Thanks for posting that as it is exactly the questions I was asking myself, but didn't have the inclination to write it all down. In my heart, I would always feel unsettled that I took the 'good parts' from a too-far-gone car and and put them on a useable, similar body, thereby "restoring" the A12. I also feel that it's an absolute shame to let some of these cars fade into nothingness, because there is barely anything left to even constitute a car. But I guess that's what eventually happens to everything -- some just faster than others. That's why there are different levels of rare I guess.

I want to state that I certainly don't think the above A12 is too far gone for a normal restoration, but I will admit to thinking of the most economical way to have an A12 parked in my driveway.:blush: What really got me thinking was it's the exact colour and top of my car and that it felt like "less cheating". Know what I mean?
 
I will post this just as info only on the car. It is from the A12 restoration forum, and I just thought I would post it to aid in information. If its not appropiate please delete it. Just trying to clear up a few question that have been asked. I also do not know this if to be 100% correct so take it for what its worth.
Matt

Re: B5 w/ white vinyl top unrestored.
Reply #13 - Today at 07:16:34 No actually I am not buying it as he wants $20K for it, and the entire unibody frame is rotten on the car, and there is really no parts worth saving other then the rare a12 only parts. The car will more then likely need a rebody. I was told this from a source very reliable to me, so I will not persue it. If it was a solid car, I would bee keeping it.
 
I will post this just as info only on the car. It is from the A12 restoration forum, and I just thought I would post it to aid in information. If its not appropiate please delete it. Just trying to clear up a few question that have been asked. I also do not know this if to be 100% correct so take it for what its worth.
Matt

Re: B5 w/ white vinyl top unrestored.
Reply #13 - Today at 07:16:34 No actually I am not buying it as he wants $20K for it, and the entire unibody frame is rotten on the car, and there is really no parts worth saving other then the rare a12 only parts. The car will more then likely need a rebody. I was told this from a source very reliable to me, so I will not persue it. If it was a solid car, I would bee keeping it.[/QUOTE]


Dynacorn is producing both old Mustang and Camaro complete resto bodys and you can bet that the vast majority of them are using original V.I.N.s from an old car.
Prepare yourself as with all the metal available from ADM it is just a matter of time before it will be the same in the Mopar world.
 
So we're right back to square one...technically. Doesn't 20k seem a little steep for a VIN and a few A12 pieces?
 
Auto Transport Service
Back
Top