Looking for advice on EFI systems for a 426 HEMI

Rustyiron

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I am looking for pros cons about going EFI on a gen II 426 HEMI. I have a 66 that is in my 69 Roadrunner and have wondered the benefits of going EFI.

I would like to hear about what system you have and how it compares to running carbs.
 

themechanic

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Most videos about EFI vs Carbs are trying to sell you an EFI system. These guys are honestly discussing the pros and cons and don't try to sell you on either carbs or EFI.

 

70chall440

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I guess it depends on what system you go with but I will say that IMO the reward is absolutely worth the cost.
 

tmaleck

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Go EFI, so worth it. It doesn't wash down the cylinders during cold start, lights right off and most systems give you spark and fuel map control in software.
 

Jerry Hall

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There is a member on the forum that has the Holley Sniper dual throttle body system on a 67 Hemi GTX. Apparently he knows the ins and outs of that system.
@MoparMontana
 

BeepBeepRR

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The last one I did for my buddy JJ he said and I quote. "First fill up since the EFI today. Was getting 7.6 mpg before with the edelbrock.Now getting 9.2 mpg with the EFI." This guy drives his car every day. Its not a trailered car its a driver. 440-TKO 5-speed And to think the EFI has not had but a few days to tune. It can only get better after its done learning.
 

diesel_lv

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If you go to a forum, you will see a few people posting problems. You have to remember that there were probably hundreds of thousands sold, so few people (100) having issues, is nothing. I went efi for the reason posted above, no cylinder wash out. HP wise, I'll be within a few +/- . I'm not trying to win a dyno shootout. Just want a long lasting engine w dependability. Anyone who says a Carb can give me the same engine longevity n dependability as FI is jaded n doesn't like anything new.
 

F4R/T

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Hmmm the great debate continues.. old versus new. It all depends on you, I personally don’t like a wet intake. If your system uses the old GM injectors on top it’s not much different than a carb. Easy starting maybe depending on tune, fuel economy maybe, clean cylinders possibly .. Burnt up electric fuel pump in the middle of no where with computer failure expensive and pisses you off. So it’s your choice. I personally think individual injectors work better than a glorified TBI. Your choice but I’ve seen some carb guys make carbs run awesome and I’ve had awesome luck with my Carter AVS and Afb.. Make a educated choice, put a pencil and paper to it, it’s not just cost IMO..
 

Hemirunner

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Most videos about EFI vs Carbs are trying to sell you an EFI system. These guys are honestly discussing the pros and cons and don't try to sell you on either carbs or EFI.


To dispel the myth laid out in that video, EFI isn’t a bolt on and forget about it installation. You will have to install it and the fuel system, wire it, configure it, you will have to tune it, you will have much more time in it than you will have in tuning a carb. Every engine is different and you’ll have to tune EFI just like a carb. EFI isn’t a shake the box and everything is perfect answer to a problem, but if you are technically inclined, it’s a fabulous improvement over a carb on one of these cars.
 

70chall440

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While what @Hemirunner is generally true to a point, going EFI is not magical or a "ticking time bomb" as some would indicate. It is not "fool proof" nor is it infallible but a modern EFI system installed correctly is WELL worth the expense and effort IMO.

Many see this discussion as a condemnation or slight on/against carbs and that is not the case really. Carburetors obviously have and do work especially on something that is driven frequently, but as has been noted many times, the current fuel formulas coupled with cars being stored for extended periods do not do the carbs any favors resulting in a myriad of problems that many do not find acceptable.

It is true that an EFI system has to be tuned, however typically the insinuation is that this is a difficult and expensive endeavor requiring the work of a professional with a dyno. That is one method to be sure, probably the best method if I am honest, but it is not the ONLY method. Most of the EFI systems available to today "self tune" and while some poo poo this as not being real or accurate, it does happen and does work, it might not be fast to tune and does require you to drive the vehicle a fair bit (not a bad thing) but it does work.

I don't know what you know about EFI so I will provide some basic information just in case. There are basically 2 types of EFI systems out there; Throttle Body Injection (TBI) and Direct Port Injection (DPI) (there are other names out there but these are essentially it). The TBI systems are what @F4R/T mentioned above as not being much better than a carb. They are "wet" systems meaning that they inject fuel down through the intake. The DPI systems have fuel rails that inject fuel directly into each cylinder. Many people opt for the TBI systems due to the lower cost and simplicity (just like bolting on a carb) and yes they are not as efficient as a DPI system, however they are still effective and work well.

The issue of things such as the fuel pump and/or the ECU failing unexpectedly "in the middle of no where" always come up in this discussion. Well unless these same people are running points and an analog VR they run the same risks of something not easily repaired failing unexpectedly and/or at a bad time.

The keys to a solid EFI system are relatively simple and unfortunately too often disregarded which results a problematic troublesome system. It is true that you can get bad components that fail, but that applies to pretty much every part every attached to a car. The main things to address when installing an EFI system to make it reliable are

1. healthy electrical system capable of providing an adequate amount of electrical power to feed the entire system but more to the point the ECU.

2. proper install of the system which means correct wiring, good grounds, good wire routing, etc.

3. proper selection and installation of the fuel system which includes using the right pump for the system, mounting the pump (in-tank or out of tank) correctly, using/installing the correct fuel line, and having the correct connections as well as regulating the system as needed.

The problem is that too many people go cheap when doing EFI and that results in failure which of course pops up on these forums. If you want to have a reliable EFI system you need to use the right parts and install them correctly. Typically going EFI means upgrading the electrical system and probably means converting the fuel system. However if you go to a DPI system with an in-tank fuel pump and include a dual sync distributor with something like a MSD ignition wherein the ECU controls spark and fuel allowing you to control pretty much everything from a laptop (idle, fuel at any RPM, timing at any rpm, etc.) you will think you have a new engine/car. You will find HP you didn't know you had and the car will start every time you hit the key regardless of how long its been sitting.
 

Derwud

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EFI is not a simple Bolt on, but once you have the ins and Outs figured out.. IT IS AWESOME! 3 installs of the Edelbrock Pro-Flo 4 and my only gripe is indexing the dist on Small Block Mopars.

1) In Tank Pump with same size feed and return lines
2) Follow instructions exactly.
3) Grounds - Grounds - Grounds, and more Grounds
4) Higher Amp Alternator and make sure you are always around 13.5 - 14 volts
5) a Cam with wider LSA 112+

Engine.JPG
DH Engine.jpg
PF4 Install.jpg
 

Derwud

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The problem is that too many people go cheap when doing EFI and that results in failure which of course pops up on these forums. If you want to have a reliable EFI system you need to use the right parts and install them correctly. Typically going EFI means upgrading the electrical system and probably means converting the fuel system. However if you go to a DPI system with an in-tank fuel pump and include a dual sync distributor with something like a MSD ignition wherein the ECU controls spark and fuel allowing you to control pretty much everything from a laptop (idle, fuel at any RPM, timing at any rpm, etc.) you will think you have a new engine/car. You will find HP you didn't know you had and the car will start every time you hit the key regardless of how long its been sitting.

These last statements are SO CORRECT!!!
 

451Mopar

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If just racing carb should be quicker. EFI is great driving on the street. If starting from scratch where you need an entire fuel system and ignition system, then the efi cost won't be as bad compared to using much of the original fuel and ignition systems.
 

Hemirunner

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My buddy is a die hard carb guy. I’ve had plenty of experience with both. Here’s where I’m currently at

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69 GeeTeeX

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Tuning isn't an issue anymore either. There’s a few really good professional remote tuners that will remotely connect into your laptop computer through the internet and tune under different conditions. Just need WiFi. Then turn your phone into a hotspot and drive while they datalog and tune.

A friend just did one and cost around $200 which isn’t bad compared to the total investment for the conversion.
 

matthon

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Drive it everyday, everywhere, this was yesterday 50+ miles from home.
Of course, I did the same with carbs.
I've posted before on this, recently, same points made as above. If you do it, do it soup to nuts, and if there's an issue, don't immediately blame the efi, kiss principle still applies.

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64 Sportfury

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I have experience with both tuning multiple carbs on a Hemi cross ram and building a stroker 318/390 with Edelbrtock Pro Flo 4. These engines are in my personal vehicles and I drive both regularly. I had issues with both set ups but I am a bit of a problem solver. I found learning about both systems challenging and rewarding. That said, after installing EFI on the stroker I would not do the same to my Hemi. As mentioned before, the EFI fuel system needs to be up to the task. I used a Tanks Inc in-tank pump system that I had fabbed into the 68 Coronet Wagon gas tank. The rest of the install I performed myself. I experienced 7 bad injectors that would not fire. Edelbrock replaced them after testing. EFI is not a simple bolt-on and forget it. Since it is not going on a SBC then the factory R&D is shortened. For instance, the EFI distributor rotor needed swapping to an adjustable MSD version as the spark wouldn't advance enough to rev above 2500 without breaking up. This condition was experienced by multiple Mopar installations. I have replaced a TPS sensor, O2 sensor, fuel pressure regulator and intake gaskets while chasing problems. I carry spare TPS and O2 sensors and the tools to change them. All this said, I do enjoy the tuneability EFI allows and the learning experience. I can change so many parameters on the fly. However, I have never had more satisfaction then when I finally got my two 770 cfm Holleys tuned on my Hemi cross ram.
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451Mopar

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I was thinking of when I was running a carb. On the Charger it was a Holley HP 1,000 cfm (discontinued model), and I added the quick change fuel bowls (about $100 on top of the carb price, which was over $600 20 years ago, around $800+ today, and rear jet extensions.
I wanted a wide band O2 sensor to better tune the carb, so that was about $200 more.
Put Electric cooling fans on car and use a Dakota digital controller, so, another $100+
Fuel system was done 20 years ago, so prices were a bit cheaper than current prices, Used a 20-gallon fuel cell, -8 AN Lines, mallory 250 GPH Pump, Mallory 500 GPH Filter and mallory by-pass fuel regulator.
Current prices, Regulator $156, Pump $565, Filter $234, Fuel cell $289. If I did a new replacement fuel tank , about $200 + sump kit $90 + welding ?
Ignition - aftermarket with adjustible advance $300+, Rev limiter $100+
That is around $2,850 in todays costs

Changing over to EFI with FiTech 1200 PA ($1499), and a 340 LPH pump module ($350) that dropped into the fuel cell. (Price of a Tanks Inc EFI tank happens to be $289 also?) Cheaped out and used a referb Lean burn distributor ($70), it works. EFI includes all the extra junk, fan control, rev-limiter, regulator, O2 sensor, Display / controller (Like extra gauges) and data logging. I used a K&N Filter 81-1000 ($120)
That was around $2330 in todays cost, add in a fancy EFI distributor (Hyperspark is $278, dual-sync about $400?) and still under $2700

With the carb and adj dist, count in the distributor (Bushings, springs) and carb tuning parts (jets, power valves, pump cams, vac sec springs if VS carb, gaskets, and time. Not to mention bleeds and restrictions if getting into the fine tuning of the carb.
With The EFI, most of the time is the learning curve on how to tune electronically. Might want to use a laptop for fine tuning and looking at data logs.
 
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Kern Dog

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I would much rather switch to fuel injection than to convert to electric!
 
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