No crank condition; sort of long story

[Billccm]

Just when I had complete MOPAR bliss a minor issue leads to a major issue. Was driving my Road Runner around today and thinking about how happy I am with it. Stopped to top off the gas tank and smelled oil. Popped the hood and my power steering return line had split and puked fluid in lots of places.

No big deal, right? Drove the car home about 2 miles.

New hose, topped off fluid. Went to start the car and nothing but the starter relay click. Was running out of time to troubleshoot, but looked at the basics quickly. I have 13V at the relay (obviously since it is clicking), but didn't trace anywhere else as I had company coming over to entertain. Tried Park and Neutral just to see if there was a change; relay click only-no crank.

I'll jack up the car tomorrow and trace back from the starter, but wanted to get the experts to advice of other items to check tomorrow. Thanks, and Happy new Year.

 

[tomlin]

I think your next step in to verify power at the small wire on the starter. Also make sure you have a good ground at the starter. That small Your probably going to need a buddy to turn the key to verify voltage. I don't know how it is wired through the neutral safety switch so I not much help there. I'm pretty new with Mopar stuff (defected from the GM crowd) so maybe the other experienced guys can chime in. I bet it is something very simple.

 

[oldbee]

Batt cables/connections,weak connections anywhere. Just gotta luv it don’t ya? Get a grin on your face & THEN???

 

[69L48Z27]

Clean those battery terminals...

 

[Billccm]

It's fixed. Two weeks ago I replaced the starter relay as a preventive measure. The ignition terminal was rusted and corroded.

Troubleshooting tonight led to no voltage on the solenoid pin. Set up a bench test with a 12V supply and a ohm meter across battery and solenoid terminals. Measure over 100 ohms when actuating.

Disassemble old relay. Solder terminals, soak in DeOxIt. Bench tested 0.12 ohms when actuating. Put old relay on car and it started. Returning new relay tomorrow.
Thanks for the help.

 

[Billccm]

Well I have to rant. I've been trying to patronize a local, formerly family owned auto parts chain (they have recently sold out to NAPA, but are keeping the family name for now). I went in Saturday morning with the three week old defective relay, original box, and receipt. I explained the relay failed, how I bench tested it, and the fact it was dropping voltage due to 160 ohms of resistance when actuated. They said "well, you must have another problem with your starter system". I then explained that I took my old relay, soldered the connections and cleaned, and it works fine now. The comeback is 'no refunds on electrical'. Okay, I'll happily take store credit. Reply is 'I will get you a warranty relay'. Fine.

They tell me the relay won't be in until Tuesday morning. They take a copy of my receipt.

I send my wife in to exchange the relay as I can't get away from work before they close (5:30PM).

Both relays are STANDARD brand SR105. The defective relay is Made in India and the case is a very faded gold color and the phoneloic board is almost black in color. The new relay is Made in China, bright and shiny gold case, and the phoneloic board is almost yellow in color. The counter guy tells my wife "he must have given you the old relay as these look different; this relay is OLD". My wife explains what I had done, and even said the old relay was bright silver and it's back on the car, and it was stamped 'made in USA', etc. Counter guy says no exchange. My wife gets a bit angry. Manager comes out and makes exchange, but basically says we are ripping them off.

Screw them! I'll buy crap from O'Rielly from now on. At least they stand behind the junk they sell.

 

[JimKueneman]

Well I have to rant. I've been trying to patronize a local, formerly family owned auto parts chain (they have recently sold out to NAPA, but are keeping the family name for now). I went in Saturday morning with the three week old defective relay, original box, and receipt. I explained the relay failed, how I bench tested it, and the fact it was dropping voltage due to 160 ohms of resistance when actuated. They said "well, you must have another problem with your starter system". I then explained that I took my old relay, soldered the connections and cleaned, and it works fine now. The comeback is 'no refunds on electrical'. Okay, I'll happily take store credit. Reply is 'I will get you a warranty relay'. Fine.

They tell me the relay won't be in until Tuesday morning. They take a copy of my receipt.

I send my wife in to exchange the relay as I can't get away from work before they close (5:30PM).

Both relays are STANDARD brand SR105. The defective relay is Made in India and the case is a very faded gold color and the phoneloic board is almost black in color. The new relay is Made in China, bright and shiny gold case, and the phoneloic board is almost yellow in color. The counter guy tells my wife "he must have given you the old relay as these look different; this relay is OLD". My wife explains what I had done, and even said the old relay was bright silver and it's back on the car, and it was stamped 'made in USA', etc. Counter guy says no exchange. My wife gets a bit angry. Manager comes out and makes exchange, but basically says we are ripping them off.

Screw them! I'll buy crap from O'Rielly from now on. At least they stand behind the junk they sell.

Wow, that really stinks Bill. Which one was it?

 

[Billccm]

Merles on 22nd.

I believe the relay they sold me had been sitting on the shelf for many years. Also, the first relay had no packing material in the box. The replacement relay was packed in bubble wrap and the box wasn't faded.

I have the replacement relay on the bench. Using an ARB and a datalogger, I am trying 100 actuations (1 per minute) with a 0.5A load. I'll post the results tonight.

 

[threewood]

Sorry to hear that Bill. Napa is usually pretty good and seems to carry better parts than Oreilly or Autozone around here.

 

[Billccm]

Well, if you followed the tread this long, you might as well stick around for more.

I tested the new 'replacement' relay using an automated ARB data logger. I set the relay actuation time for the SAE cranking spec of 9 seconds, and 30 seconds off. The Battery terminal is connected to 13V, and the Solenoid terminal is connected to a precision Electronic Load set for 0.5A. The Ignition terminal is connected to the ARB, and the G terminal is GND. I used a 0.5A load to match the relay coil current so I could easily get a histogram of each section of the relay. I recorded data for a little over one hour.

The relay worked properly and never failed (voltage drop at 0.5A was 0.08V). See photo of the plots and histograms of each relay's section. The off and on times are equal for the coil and relay contacts.

The reason my wife was 'accused' of returning a old relay is because she did, as they sold me an old relay to begin with as shown in the photos below.

new replacement relay (CHINA)

Old replacement relay (INDIA)

The 'maybe original' relay that I repaired is made in the USA.

The solenoid pin (terminal with a screw clamp) has a rivet on the old replacement relay. This is what I needed to solder on my old 'maybe original' to get the relay to work again. The new defective relay has that same type of rivet, but the new replacement relay looks like an improvement? I assume this is a weak point and cause of failure in these relays?

One other item to note, the actuation current of my old 'maybe original' relay is about 350mA, yet both of the replacement relays sink 500mA to actuate. Probably less coil wire in the newer relays? Lower actuation current is easier on the ignition switch contacts.

So, now you know more than you ever thought you'd know about the MOPAR starter relay.

 

[Billccm]

Napa is usually pretty good and seems to carry better parts than Oreilly or Autozone around here.

I agree with you, and really want to patronize local business and buy quality. Disappointed at this business. To add insult to injury, I paid $36 for a Standard SR105 from this business, and could get the exact same part from Rock Auto for $17. I do hope they made all of the $19 in price difference as they won't see any more money from me.

 

[threewood]

I agree with you, and really want to patronize local business and buy quality. Disappointed at this business. To add insult to injury, I paid $36 for a Standard SR105 from this business, and could get the exact same part from Rock Auto for $17. I do hope they made all of the $19 in price difference as they won't see any more money from me.

I haven't seen a local auto parts store in years. I think I have a relay that has the brown phenolic board but I'm sure i ordered it through Rock Auto. It works though. i may even have an original in my parts boxes.