Steering not self correcting

[rww124]

Hey all haven't been on the site for some time now however would like to get some feedback on an issue I am having with my steering not self correcting on my 1969 Super Bee. Last winter I had a reman. power steering box installed to replace my old worn one. I have taken the car in for a front end alignment not only because of the new box/gear being put in but also because it was a wrestling match steering the car as well the steering wouldn't self correct after making a turn (both left and right). Camber, caster and toe were all out of wack where the service station set my left and right camber to 0.3, my left castor to 0.3/right 0.4, left toe 0.13/right 0.12. The car handles a little better however still does not self correct. I spoke to a retired 40 year+ red seal mechanic who stated his shop sets the caster to the maximum spec. being 1.3 on both wheels so the car will self correct. The tech. who did the alignment took the car for a test drive both before and after however did not say anything to the shop owner who has a few old cars including a 1970 Charger about the situation.

 

[toolmanmike]

Just curious, who did your gearbox rebuild. Usually it's just because you don't have enough caster but bad steering parts or a bad gearbox can cause it.

 

[rww124]

Just curious, who did your gearbox rebuild. Usually it's just because you don't have enough caster but bad steering parts or a bad gearbox can cause it.

Bought the gearbox from Piston Ring in Winnipeg who tell me that they get their reman. boxes from BBB/Wilson in Winnipeg (they have also changed names however only remember it starts with a T. The castor was set at the lowest end of the range and going by a mechanic friend he tells me his shop always sets the caster at the top of the range. Will contact the shop on Monday to ask why they didn't increase the caster after a post test drive where it was revealed the car still did not self correct even though it was one of the things I said I was having an issue with. The shop (Automotive Connection) was recommended on the Manitoba Mopar site so hope the shop owner will take the car back in and increase the caster free of charge since this issue was not corrected the first time.

 

[AR67GTX]

A caster setting of 1.3 degrees is pretty marginal but not unusual as most camber settings for bias tires was slightly positive whereas with radials they usually shoot for some negative camber - which limits the ultimate amount of caster than can usually be obtained.

Just an odd ball comment on your steering, is it vague in the center rather than just not returning to center? Both times I’ve changed out steering boxes in Mopars I put the bolts in without thread locker and both times the bolts loosened up and the steering of course became vague and loose on center. So then I apply blue loctite and tighten and issue solved.

 

[Cop car wagon]

Make sure the column tube is not touching the steering shaft.
A minor drag will hold the steering, and be unfelt by you inside.

 

[rww124]

A caster setting of 1.3 degrees is pretty marginal but not unusual as most camber settings for bias tires was slightly positive whereas with radials they usually shoot for some negative camber - which limits the ultimate amount of caster than can usually be obtained.

Just an odd ball comment on your steering, is it vague in the center rather than just not returning to center? Both times I’ve changed out steering boxes in Mopars I put the bolts in without thread locker and both times the bolts loosened up and the steering of course became vague and loose on center. So then I apply blue loctite and tighten and issue solved.

Steering at top is tight. I will have to ask the person who installed the box if they used thread lock. The right side has the most castor at 1.3 however on the page the alignment shop gave me 1.3 is at the top of the range so unsure if a shop would push it more and I'm not sure if it will ruin the box and don't know if the shop knows.

 

[AR67GTX]

It won’t hurt the box to put more caster in. Manual steering is often set up with less caster to keep steering effort down. That’s not a concern with power steering so they usually increase it (if adjustments permit) to give more self centering and promote straight tracking. A lot of the guys who like curves and road racing will try to get a lot of caster in, maybe 3-4 degrees and more.

But, could be a less than optimum sector adjustment in the box, or low pump pressure.

 

[rww124]

It won’t hurt the box to put more caster in. Manual steering is often set up with less caster to keep steering effort down. That’s not a concern with power steering so they usually increase it (if adjustments permit) to give more self centering and promote straight tracking. A lot of the guys who like curves and road racing will try to get a lot of caster in, maybe 3-4 degrees and more.

But, could be a less than optimum sector adjustment in the box, or low pump pressure.

I don't intend on taking any planned wild turns as in road racing these car had one purpose, go fast in a straight line.

 

[j-c-c-62]

"1.3" Deg caster IMO is nearly none but better then nothing. However self-correcting/centering is mostly a driver aid, it does not improve road racing handling/grip per se, and can actually degrade it by cross weight jacking. A performance-oriented car should mostly go where the driver steers it, not where it wants to go. High degrees of caster gives the car a mind of its own that drivers in road racing have to counteract or control as needed. Lazy street driving accepts large caster settings for average drivers.
I have personally never set my own caster, but I suspect being it effects camber, toe, and bump steer it can be a moving target to achieve as it simultaneously effects the other settings as well, multiplying the time needed by the alignment tech, and why its low on their importance list to gain high values of caster.

 

[rww124]

"1.3" Deg caster IMO is nearly none but better then nothing. However self-correcting/centering is mostly a driver aid, it does not improve road racing handling/grip per se, and can actually degrade it by cross weight jacking. A performance-oriented car should mostly go where the driver steers it, not where it wants to go. High degrees of caster gives the car a mind of its own that drivers in road racing have to counteract or control as needed. Lazy street driving accepts large caster settings for average drivers.
I have personally never set my own caster, but I suspect being it effects camber, toe, and bump steer it can be a moving target to achieve as it simultaneously effects the other settings as well, multiplying the time needed by the alignment tech, and why its low on their importance list to gain high values of caster.

As it is now without the car's steering self correcting to center the car will drive right into on coming traffic if I'm not turning the steering wheel like a madman back to center. I would have thought adjusting the castor so it self corrects would be a priority for the alignment tech. as the car would never pass a safety inspection without.

 

[rww124]

It won’t hurt the box to put more caster in. Manual steering is often set up with less caster to keep steering effort down. That’s not a concern with power steering so they usually increase it (if adjustments permit) to give more self centering and promote straight tracking. A lot of the guys who like curves and road racing will try to get a lot of caster in, maybe 3-4 degrees and more.

But, could be a less than optimum sector adjustment in the box, or low pump pressure.

Even though the car was all over the lane with the old steering box it was still very light and did self correct as good as it could considering at the time the alignment was all out of wack so don't think the pump pressure would be low. As far as optimum sector adjustment in the steering box I have no idea what that means.

 

[j-c-c-62]

As it is now without the car's steering self correcting to center the car will drive right into on coming traffic if I'm not turning the steering wheel like a madman back to center. I would have thought adjusting the castor so it self corrects would be a priority for the alignment tech. as the car would never pass a safety inspection without.

That does not make sense.

 

[AR67GTX]

Even though the car was all over the lane with the old steering box it was still very light and did self correct as good as it could considering at the time the alignment was all out of wack so don't think the pump pressure would be low. As far as optimum sector adjustment in the steering box I have no idea what that means.

It’s something the rebuilder does when they reassemble the box. They have to set the sector/worm mesh adjustment and then lash adjustment and in the process verify backlash and preload writing from memory. The factory service manual outlines the process. Bottom line of my mentioning that is just the rebuilder could have screwed it up and it just has to go back to them. I’m not sure you are at that point yet though.

 

[AR67GTX]

As it is now without the car's steering self correcting to center the car will drive right into on coming traffic if I'm not turning the steering wheel like a madman back to center. I would have thought adjusting the castor so it self corrects would be a priority for the alignment tech. as the car would never pass a safety inspection without.

I’m not sure we are getting a clear picture from this. Something you might do is jack the front of the car off the ground (tires free of ground) center the steering, then hands off the wheel and then start the car and see if the steering wheel stays centered or if it creeps off and turns the wheels in one direction or the other. There is an adjustment on the PS box that sets this and may need some fine tuning. If the steering seems to be pulling in one direction or the other that road crown doesn’t seem to be the cause of, could be this adjustment.

 

[rww124]

I’m not sure we are getting a clear picture from this. Something you might do is jack the front of the car off the ground (tires free of ground) center the steering, then hands off the wheel and then start the car and see if the steering wheel stays centered or if it creeps off and turns the wheels in one direction or the other. There is an adjustment on the PS box that sets this and may need some fine tuning. If the steering seems to be pulling in one direction or the other that road crown doesn’t seem to be the cause of, could be this adjustment.

Would this be the screw and lock nut on top of the steering box?

 

[rww124]

It’s something the rebuilder does when they reassemble the box. They have to set the sector/worm mesh adjustment and then lash adjustment and in the process verify backlash and preload writing from memory. The factory service manual outlines the process. Bottom line of my mentioning that is just the rebuilder could have screwed it up and it just has to go back to them. I’m not sure you are at that point yet though.

I will try jacking the front wheels of the ground first and see what the steering does. If the guy who rebuilt the box screwed up then it's going to be very costly as I would have to take the car to a service station with a hoist. When my cousin put the new steering box in he had to remove the header as well. The castor is currently set at 0.3 (L) and 0.4 (R) which is at the bottom of the range according to the owner of the shop who did the alignment. Top of the range for caster is 1.3 both sides so don't know if adjusting the caster to 1.3 would solve the problem. I told the owner of the shop that the steering not correcting so have no idea why the caster was adjusted to the lowest setting. He said he has been in business for 35 years and owns a '70 Charger so don't know why this didn't click to set the caster higher.

 

[toolmanmike]

I’m not sure we are getting a clear picture from this. Something you might do is jack the front of the car off the ground (tires free of ground) center the steering, then hands off the wheel and then start the car and see if the steering wheel stays centered or if it creeps off and turns the wheels in one direction or the other. There is an adjustment on the PS box that sets this and may need some fine tuning. If the steering seems to be pulling in one direction or the other that road crown doesn’t seem to be the cause of, could be this adjustment.

Would this be the screw and lock nut on top of the steering box?

No. The valve may need adjustment. This is shown at the 6 min mark. My 64 needed adjustment. It pulled and didn't return properly. It also would turn by itself when I would start the engine. Loosen the valve bolts and tap the valve one way or the other to center it. If it get's worse, you went the wrong way.

 

[khryslerkid]

You can tell if it needs adjustment just by sitting in the car with the engine running. Starting in the straight on position with the wheels and steering wheel straight, turn to the left just half a turn then back to center. Then turn a half a turn to the right and back to center. If you feel more resistance one way or the other the valve needs adjusting.

Have the car up on jacks and watch that jack stands won't interfere with steering linkage. Start the car and see if the steering wheel favors one direction or the other. If it's moving towards one direction you'll need to adjust the valve. If it feels easier one way or the other you need to adjust the valve.

When adjusting the valve, loosen the two bolts just enough that it will allow you to slide the valve. It only takes a small fraction to make a difference. Like 20-30 thousands of an inch or less. Go small increments at a time. Don't put your hand through the steering wheel after making an adjustment.

If your steering wheel is not centered when driving it will act different. The tight spot in the gear box is when the steering wheel is exactly straight. There's a bit of resistance in this position for a reason. If the steering wheel is off centered and your driving down the road, it will have no resistance off center one way and resistance the other direction. Makes it a bit hard to control.

Good luck.

 

[j-c-c-62]

So, group think here is leaning towards the OP's main issue is more a steering gear box adjustment rather than an alignment issue that he first inquired about?

 

[toolmanmike]

So, group think here is leaning towards the OP's main issue is more a SB adjustment rather than an alignment issue that he first inquired about?

Of course the alignment needs to be right. As do the linkage and the tires. The pressure valve adjustment only takes minuites and can cause what the OP is experiencing.