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Road Runner Market - Soft or Strong?

jslionheart1

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Recently, in the for sale forum, I posted separate links to two hemi Road Runners for sale at an upcoming Mecum auction in Kissimmee, Florida.

See the post here: http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?45039-69-Hemi-Road-Runners-Mecum

I posted the links in that forum because those cars are for sale. It seemed to make sense at the time, but now that I'm thinking about it more, it dawned on me that I might get a better response in this forum instead.

I posted the links for two reasons: (i) eye candy; and (ii) to spark a discussion on members' opinions or views of the current market conditions - is the market for Hemi Road Runners, Mopar Muscle or even muscle cars in general soft or recovering, right now?

Any thoughts or first hand experiences? Thanks for your input in advance!
 
market is always tough on mopars except for exceptional matching numbers cars in exceptional condition.(and those have dropped) The age group of buyers is smaller due to attrition(death,disability,lost interest) The newer generation of buyers want new camaro's,challengers,mustangs for various reasons. I've seen 69 GTX's go for 28k on barrett, a 73 numbers matching cuda for 22k(340 car). The hemi cars were going for HUGE money about 5 years ago but have settled way back. I'll have an old muscle car to My end as I don't care they ride rough,get poor mileage, great accelleration and one thing the new cars don't get....people chasing Me to ask what year or give a compliment. Happens every time I'm out.
 
market is always tough on mopars except for exceptional matching numbers cars in exceptional condition.(and those have dropped) The age group of buyers is smaller due to attrition(death,disability,lost interest) The newer generation of buyers want new camaro's,challengers,mustangs for various reasons. I've seen 69 GTX's go for 28k on barrett, a 73 numbers matching cuda for 22k(340 car). The hemi cars were going for HUGE money about 5 years ago but have settled way back. I'll have an old muscle car to My end as I don't care they ride rough,get poor mileage, great accelleration and one thing the new cars don't get....people chasing Me to ask what year or give a compliment. Happens every time I'm out.

I agree 100%. Don't gauge anything by these major auctions. They make money no matter what. Nothing has really changed since 2007-2008. The market is down 30-35% on all these cars, not just Mopars. If you want to sell something or have to sell something, take the hit and move on. The stupid prices before the crash are not coming back. These are the cars of my youth and I too just enjoy all the attention I get. It is like erasing the last 45 years! I have a #1 restored Hemi GTX. So what? If you are truly a buyer and have the cash, you can get a fantastic car today.
 
My opinion is that classic vehicle auctions like Mecum, BJ and others since they have started televising them on Speed Channel and other networks have turned the classic car hobby as far as being able to own a classic car out of the reach of a lot of the "regular" car guy or gal. People who never ever gave it thought of owning a classic car after seeing the prices some of these really silly people (people who have more money then "cents") are paying for some of these cars/trucks think well I can do that (buy and "flip" a classic car simply to make a big profit). And other "regular" car people have gotten "greedy" thinking if they can do it why can't I.
So it has gotten to the point that the real car person cannot afford to own what they really would like in a classic car. It's to bad.....it is a great hobby, to bad it is turning in to more of a business of buying and selling cars then a hobby of just owning one and working on it and hanging out with others with the same simple interest.

Again just my opinion
 
My opinion is that classic vehicle auctions like Mecum, BJ and others since they have started televising them on Speed Channel and other networks have turned the classic car hobby as far as being able to own a classic car out of the reach of a lot of the "regular" car guy or gal. People who never ever gave it thought of owning a classic car after seeing the prices some of these really silly people (people who have more money then "cents") are paying for some of these cars/trucks think well I can do that (buy and "flip" a classic car simply to make a big profit). And other "regular" car people have gotten "greedy" thinking if they can do it why can't I.
So it has gotten to the point that the real car person cannot afford to own what they really would like in a classic car. It's to bad.....it is a great hobby, to bad it is turning in to more of a business of buying and selling cars then a hobby of just owning one and working on it and hanging out with others with the same simple interest.

Again just my opinion

Also as generations get older die off and new drivers come on board... there is a lack of market as well. Kids today want hondas or skylines or some other tuner car.. Its a combination of things.. Did you watch mecum last night ? Lot of cars went for under 20k and a lot for less than 14k.. so the market is adjusting to todays economics... there was a gold rush a few years back but now its leveling out... prices were inflated and now are where they should be and book values need to be adjusted as well. I see cars not selling for less than half of book..... I'm waiting a bit as well before I buy to see what pops up and yes I want to flip a car or two to get the car I really want.. its how you do things when you dont have money. Make your hobby work for you instead of just losing money on it year round. Isnt ruining anything for anyone, its the way the hobby has always worked. The internet and tv has opened the market for sellers and buyers.
Finding cars for deals by being out for a drive isnt what it used to be..LOL but neither is a lot of things but one thing stays the same: supply and demand. Disposable money isnt what it used to be is the real issue.
 
Also as generations get older die off and new drivers come on board... there is a lack of market as well. Kids today want hondas or skylines or some other tuner car.. Its a combination of things.. Did you watch mecum last night ? Lot of cars went for under 20k and a lot for less than 14k.. so the market is adjusting to todays economics... there was a gold rush a few years back but now its leveling out... prices were inflated and now are where they should be and book values need to be adjusted as well. I see cars not selling for less than half of book..... I'm waiting a bit as well before I buy to see what pops up and yes I want to flip a car or two to get the car I really want.. its how you do things when you dont have money. Make your hobby work for you instead of just losing money on it year round. Isnt ruining anything for anyone, its the way the hobby has always worked. The internet and tv has opened the market for sellers and buyers.
Finding cars for deals by being out for a drive isnt what it used to be..LOL but neither is a lot of things but one thing stays the same: supply and demand. Disposable money isnt what it used to be is the real issue.


being 34 i gotta agree with the next generation comment. not to many guys younger than me at the mopar events or even cruise nights for that matter. hell i still feel young when i go to the cruise nights... i think values will continue to decline, the younger generation would rather drive video game cars than the real thing. i do think 68-69 roadrunner/GTX's along with 68-69 chargers are still a few of the best other than 70-71 E body's for holding onto value.
 
I know many of you cringe when I discuss this, but what we are seeing isn't really a drop in values. It is a natural market correction to the prices our cars should be at. While some will deny it, the simple truth is the value of our cars progressed at a normal rate up until October 1987. If you have lots of spare time on your hands, and access to resources like old copies of Hemmings or Auto Trader, look at how prices were trending before the stock market stumble of October 1987 and after. Many investors lost confidence in Wall Street after the plunge and looked to invest their money in safer areas and the collector car market was right at the top of the list.

Our cars have been way over-valued since 1987, and it just lasted long enough for the market to become accustomed to those inflated prices. But between the bad economy, the costs of storing and maintaining these cars, and more lucrative investments like gold attracting more and more investment dollars, we're now seeing the inflationary bulge that had been propping up the market moving away and the serious collectors are setting more of the prices, so you can expect to see more and more cars selling at more normalized market prices vice the un-naturally inflated prices of the past.
 
There is no question: The Barrett-Jackson auction has hurt the "hobbyist" How? Enflated selling prices.
Of the two Auctions:
Mecum is more credible where as Barrett-Jackson is a JOKE!
Barrett-Jackson has had numerous lawsuits levied against them.
Barrett-Jackson will "stop the auction" and Craig will speak for 3 minutes telling/directing prospective bidders that: "this car is this...and that car is that"
And the best one: "People, you really dont know what we have here" all to drive up the $$ so they get their cut.
That one guy "Steve" w/ the sunglasses? he's another one.
Mecum: Dana Mecum WILL cut his profits to get the car sold. He does not "stall' the auction"
MY POINT? Yes, as everyone stated above...the Auctions do not reflect "real-world" prices.
Yet, people who are selling their cars seem to think there stuff is "woth gold" ALL because of "The Barrett-Jackson Circus"
 
Thanks for everyone's input. I see where you guys are coming from - most definitely.

I'm part of that newer generation too, but I prefer the older muscle to the new muscle. Like some of you, I also worry that classic car hobby will dwindle significantly with my generation. It's already too late for me - I'm addicted to the pure violence of my RR eating gas and chewing through rubber. :laughing7:

If you are truly a buyer and have the cash, you can get a fantastic car today.

In today's market, what could we expect a 69 Hemi RR to sell for at auction? I've searched past auction results, but it's tough to compare each car, apples to apples, without seeing them. With that said, it seems that 69 Hemi RR prices range from $60K to $80K at auction, with exceptional cars going upwards of $100K. Am I close?
 
Honestly, i think the drop in prices is good - why do you think all of these 'barn finds' even happen? Because someone 20 years ago wanted to 'hold onto their investment'. Now with the market correction, these cars are being sold and ENJOYED. Besides, if it werent for the drop in prices, I would still be a life long Mopar fan who couldnt afford one.

Also, I think it's natural for a collector market like this to go south after a few genrations, but I dont mind that either because right now my 3 year old son loves em and this only guarentees he'll also be able to aford one (or I'll ve able to afford one for him).

lol, he will do anything to sit in my 'cool car' and has told me he wants a red one 'with fire shooting out the back'. He also told my wife we need another garage. Haha, I couldnt agree more.
 
I know many of you cringe when I discuss this, but what we are seeing isn't really a drop in values. It is a natural market correction to the prices our cars should be at. While some will deny it, the simple truth is the value of our cars progressed at a normal rate up until October 1987. If you have lots of spare time on your hands, and access to resources like old copies of Hemmings or Auto Trader, look at how prices were trending before the stock market stumble of October 1987 and after. Many investors lost confidence in Wall Street after the plunge and looked to invest their money in safer areas and the collector car market was right at the top of the list.

Our cars have been way over-valued since 1987, and it just lasted long enough for the market to become accustomed to those inflated prices. But between the bad economy, the costs of storing and maintaining these cars, and more lucrative investments like gold attracting more and more investment dollars, we're now seeing the inflationary bulge that had been propping up the market moving away and the serious collectors are setting more of the prices, so you can expect to see more and more cars selling at more normalized market prices vice the un-naturally inflated prices of the past.


I agree completely and I'll take that argument right to real-estate in my area. At one point my 2 bd 1026 sq-ft condo would have sold for nearly $500K. Like the condo, there is no way that a POS 69 Charger with a 318 is worth $20K, or at least shouldn't be. However, the most important factor in determining the value of a car or a property is the desirability factor and supply and demand. Those last two things throw all logic and common sense out the window. If you take the normal course of inflation at approximately 3.5% per year, which none of us have control over, and extrapolate that back to the 80's, you can get the common sense value. Fold that number into the S&D and desirability factor and you often get stupid money asking prices.

Like many here I like driving my relics of automotive history and the joy it brings to many when they see it driving around, and I don't care if the price went up or down $10K because I'm not selling anyway. I can only hope that if I have to sell I won't get taken to the cleaners. This is why I don't want to bury myself financially by restoring a 73 Pinto. Seeing the cars on the road reminds people of a better time in their life and often encourages conversation. Recently I put up a thread about driving my hemi Charger smack in the middle of San Francisco commute traffic. I can tell you for certain seeing that car on the road broke up the daily grind for many.

To all you car flippers. Stop giving the old cars a bad rap. Too many non car people will buy/ride in an old car because it's pretty and unique, but find the ride to be less than pleasant. Wind noise because the door glass is not properly aligned, that damp smell because all the seals leak, electrical issues because the terminals that live outside are corroded, bad gas mileage because of tuning issues, engine leaks, and so on. Then blame all those problems on the fact that it is an old car. Stop and think for a moment. Do you really believe that anyone would have bought our cars new if they had all those problems? I realize that quality control and basic design is way better now than it was but I recall riding in old cars when they were new and they were much better than many so called "restored" cars.

As a flipper you must add value to something in order for the price to be justified, but that is rarely the case unless you are a professional shop. I can't count how much junk I have seen at swap meets and classic car sale places with high asking prices. I look at those cars and think I'd have to completely rebuild it. How many people will take the time to properly sort out a car? Not many. They all want to put a cheap paint job on something they dragged out of a barn and get big bucks for it because that's what is done on TV.
 
I think the market is just soft now because of the economy. I go to the Carlilse show every year and there are a lot of young people there participating and buying parts for these musclecars. Kids do buy rice burners and mustangs to drive every day but i bet there are a more than you think working on a musclecar they have tucked away somewhere. After all, what kid can drop $20k-$30k on a mopar for a driver?
 
Some of you may remember years back when #1 59 Eldo converts were bringing $150K..... 'nuff said
 
The other concern is even if you do all the work yourself the price for materal and parts from like year one or classic car is so high you restore your car and you end up with a lot more than you will ever get out of it. You have to do it for the love of the car my 69rr will be with me until I die then it will go to my oldest boy then to his boy. I could never get what I have in it back there is a lot of blood sweat and tears.
 
The other concern is even if you do all the work yourself the price for materal and parts from like year one or classic car is so high you restore your car and you end up with a lot more than you will ever get out of it. You have to do it for the love of the car my 69rr will be with me until I die then it will go to my oldest boy then to his boy. I could never get what I have in it back there is a lot of blood sweat and tears.

This is basically why I started this thread: here is the backstory to it.

I purchased my 69RR in 2008. It is good driver quality - a solid car. Originally, it was a 383, 4 speed car. Now, it has a '73 440, Auto (though converting to manual this winter/spring). I've budgeted $60K for the restoration, rebuild and customization of my 69RR. I paid $20K for the car, allocated $20K towards a hemi, and allocated $20K for body, paint, mechanical, interior and wheels/tires (boy, $20K seems light for all that work!!!!). This 69RR will likely never be worth $60K in the marketplace! I'll get millions of dollars of enjoyment out of it, but I'll most likely never have the ability to recover that $60K investment, or the blood, sweat and tears poured into it in the process. (P.S. - I'm OK with this.)

So, with the seemingly soft RR market, I wondered the price point at which I could purchase a "J" code hemi car - $50K, $60K, $70K, more? I'd be forced to sell my 69RR to make up some of the difference between cost and my budget. However, if restored hemi RR's (even older restorations) are selling in the $60's range, for example, then it seems that I would be further ahead buying a hemi car rather than dropping another $40K into my RR because the hemi RR will hold its value better than a regular RR. On the other hand, if hemi RR's are selling in the $80's range, this thread is moot, and I'll happily keep my current RR!

Any thoughts?
 
I'm an advocate of getting a real car rather than dumping tons of money into a clone. Like you said, the real deal will hold it's value if you are into that sort of thing. But on the other hand a nicely done resto mod could potentially be worth as much if not more. Just depends if it was done by some famous shop or is so unique and cool that buyers will fight over it. The American Graffiti yellow 32 coupe was a piece of crap compared to 80% of the coupes you see at shows and it's worth a ton of money I bet. I sold a 69 Charger R/T SE numbers matching car to a guy that eventually had it redone and modified by Steve Strope at Pure Vision and that car is now famous. It had a cameo in the Green Hornet movie and other appearances here and there. The owner claims it's worth more than a restored R/T SE any day.
 
I'm an advocate of getting a real car rather than dumping tons of money into a clone. Like you said, the real deal will hold it's value if you are into that sort of thing. But on the other hand a nicely done resto mod could potentially be worth as much if not more. Just depends if it was done by some famous shop or is so unique and cool that buyers will fight over it. The American Graffiti yellow 32 coupe was a piece of crap compared to 80% of the coupes you see at shows and it's worth a ton of money I bet. I sold a 69 Charger R/T SE numbers matching car to a guy that eventually had it redone and modified by Steve Strope at Pure Vision and that car is now famous. It had a cameo in the Green Hornet movie and other appearances here and there. The owner claims it's worth more than a restored R/T SE any day.

Thanks for your input!

I guess that I should do a little soul searching to figure whether or not I want to end up with a restoration or a resto-mod.

Like most decisions these days, I think it will be determined by money. I'd be tickled to have a real car, but if my money doesn't stretch that far, I'll resto-mod my RR. Either way - I hope to end up with one sweet bird.
 
Thanks for your input!

I guess that I should do a little soul searching to figure whether or not I want to end up with a restoration or a resto-mod.

Like most decisions these days, I think it will be determined by money. I'd be tickled to have a real car, but if my money doesn't stretch that far, I'll resto-mod my RR. Either way - I hope to end up with one sweet bird.

i think you have hit the nail pretty square on the head. my foray into this game, was, i was very fortunate enough to have acquired a 69 fresh re-built hemi engine from a 69 road runner. the reason for the re-build was the whole car sat in a barn for approx 30 plus yrs smashed up in new brunswick, ca. the older gentle man who acquired it new the guy who owned it and they both bought new hemi r/r's in 69 together. he still has his but his buddy passed and he got his smashed one and re-built it.
anyway, i bought it and it sat in my shop for 5-6 years while i was thinking which way to go with it. the orig car now gone but i knew the value of the engine. brought 1 69 r/r roller home from kentucky but it wasn't worthy of putting the hemi in it. sold it.
a buddy from L.A. Cali was up and he ragged on me for letting it sit, him being in this game big time down there. i chirped back at him to find me a car to put it in due to where he lived. a month or two later he calls and asked if i would be interested in the 69 coronet i have now, bought at pomona swap meet. its not an original hemi car but its a very, very nice 69 coronet with a 69 hemi engine and a complete brand new new power train. i have approx 45,000 into it, it appraised at north of 60 and i drive it. up here at a cruise or a show with a 100 cars there will be only 2-3 hemi's maybe. priceless.
bud make yourself happy you are only going down this road once. good luck.
 
From experience.... I wasnt happy knowing I had a clone, I got lucky to get some of my money back out of it
 
From experience.... I wasnt happy knowing I had a clone, I got lucky to get some of my money back out of it


if the car was 66 on up...the vin numbers tell the entire story as far as what model and original engine size...if that helps...and for the "flipper" comment....been doing it for over 20 years and represent the cars as they are....most comments are" it's better than described" check My feedback on the "bay"
 
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