dinoroadrunner
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Thanks for the input I'm hearing AlterKtion is the way to go.
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Don't want to "bad mouth" any of the suppliers out there since they're still out there and selling their parts - so they have to be respectable in their product or word would have gotten back to us by now.
After I did my reviews of them . . . Alter-K-tion and Magnum Force - I bought the Magnum Force unit - and what I can tell you is the following:
Clint / Jen are great people to work with, and they are very eager to make sure you're happy with the product
The Front suspension that I received was a work of art - I will also note ( it's all posted in my build thread ) that the motor mounts for my 5.7 Gen 3 hemi were not working, and my buddy and I modified them ( MF offered to send it back to them, at their cost, rebuild it, re-powder coat it, and send it back to me ) but instead, my buddy and I got it fixed to perfection and MF spotted me a credit that I will be able to apply to any other parts that I may need to purchase from them.
A win-win situation from my point of view.
I'm still building my car so I can't answer how it handles - yet - but it has been bolted into the car and it fit like a glove.
Feel free to check out my build thread and see the Magnum Force front suspension in my 67 Belvedere Convertible . . .
A-body
And I do believe that you need to add an additional body support to the A-body to strengthen up the shock tower for use with the MF unit . . .
After I did my reviews of them . . . Alter-K-tion and Magnum Force - I bought the Magnum Force unit - and what I can tell you is the following:
Clint / Jen are great people to work with, and they are very eager to make sure you're happy with the product
The Front suspension that I received was a work of art - I will also note ( it's all posted in my build thread ) that the motor mounts for my 5.7 Gen 3 hemi were not working, and my buddy and I modified them ( MF offered to send it back to them, at their cost, rebuild it, re-powder coat it, and send it back to me ) but instead, my buddy and I got it fixed to perfection and MF spotted me a credit that I will be able to apply to any other parts that I may need to purchase from them.
A win-win situation from my point of view.
I'm still building my car so I can't answer how it handles - yet - but it has been bolted into the car and it fit like a glove.
Feel free to check out my build thread and see the Magnum Force front suspension in my 67 Belvedere Convertible . . .
A-body
And I do believe that you need to add an additional body support to the A-body to strengthen up the shock tower for use with the MF unit . . .
dinoroadrunner
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HYRDGOON
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I also decided on the Magnum Force setup. As far as weight goes it's 100lbs lighter than stock K frame and after speaking to other owners as well as member here Bherman (that built his own work of art) he felt that the magnum force was the better option when comparing to the RMS (I highly valued his opinion)
Of course also after seeing Larry's (conv67bdere) customer service experience I was also pleased. I had some issues with my order but it was to do with availability of the Wilwood brake kit parts so can't really help supply chain issues
Just picked mine up last week.
Of course also after seeing Larry's (conv67bdere) customer service experience I was also pleased. I had some issues with my order but it was to do with availability of the Wilwood brake kit parts so can't really help supply chain issues
Just picked mine up last week.
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I don't know where these companies get their info. 100 lbs lighter??? Maybe if the K member is filled with concrete!
My guess is that they compare their stuff using a manual rack steering to a stock setup with power steering. Sure, the stock iron case power steering chuck is a heavy unit. Buy a Borgeson and cut the weight by a third.
These aftermarket setups have not been proven to be any better or faster in a road race application than a well sorted stock based setup.
I will concede that they may possibly ride better. They do offer more header clearance.
Is the $3000 or more worth it to you?
My guess is that they compare their stuff using a manual rack steering to a stock setup with power steering. Sure, the stock iron case power steering chuck is a heavy unit. Buy a Borgeson and cut the weight by a third.
These aftermarket setups have not been proven to be any better or faster in a road race application than a well sorted stock based setup.
I will concede that they may possibly ride better. They do offer more header clearance.
Is the $3000 or more worth it to you?
HYRDGOON
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I'm sure the 100lb total is with all components considered including the manual rack, drums to discs etc...
To be honest my car handled great and stayed flat after my swap to Bilsteins on all 4 corners. 2 factors made me go this route and neither are a typical consideration for the average build
1) the torsion bars were completely in the way of how we decided we wanted to do the cross member locating for my T56 Swap
2) I wanted a better steering feel but am limited to add power steering because of the Procharger sitting up front.
To be honest my car handled great and stayed flat after my swap to Bilsteins on all 4 corners. 2 factors made me go this route and neither are a typical consideration for the average build
1) the torsion bars were completely in the way of how we decided we wanted to do the cross member locating for my T56 Swap
2) I wanted a better steering feel but am limited to add power steering because of the Procharger sitting up front.
HYRDGOON
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Also to add to my above comment ride height was also something that was a considering factor as well. I want my car to be as low as it can without sacrificing day to day drivability.... easier done with coilovers
Torkmnstr
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I just order a Gerst setup for my bird. For the price you can't beat it. My buddy runs it on his dart and loves it. Big tube, beautiful welds and the guy has great customer service. I got his top kit with upgraded wilwoods and it was still less than the competition. But everyone has their .02 cents.
I have RMS on my '73 aluminum 572" Hemi challenger. The car handled extremely well after install, but has been in shop for last three years getting total every nut & bolt rotisserie restoration. Since I'm retired now, it should re-hit the road next Summer '17. I hope, I hope! We'll see how it handles then! Scott
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A friend of mine spent who knows how much to install a Magnum Force setup in his 64 Valiant. The suspension travel is LESS. The car rides okay but on wallowy roads, the suspension tops out at the crest of a sharp hill or crown. Also, I don't know what specs they use to determine the steering rack but the car now has a much wider turning radius. What U turn that could have been made before now requires a 3 point effort. The handling isn't any better but they haven't installed the front sway bar yet.
Sure, there are companies offering something new. Do not take this as a statement that the factory setup is flawed. The torsion bar arrangement was art in engineering. The only real flaw in it is the cramped conditions to fit headers. The RMS/Magnum Force and others are new and shiny, they look modern to the untrained eye but....You can spend about HALF the money by upgrading a few of the stock components and have equal satisfaction with OEM durability and no failures at 3000 miles.
There are plenty of people that rave about how much better their cars feel after installing these aftermarket setups. Well, of COURSE the car handles better than it did with 100,000 miles on a stock setup! I wonder if they know how well an upgraded OEM setup performs. I'm talking about a car with bigger torsion bars, urethane bushings, bigger sway bars, reinforced control arms and K member, frame connectors and a good set of shocks. The stock steering box can be upgraded by companies like Firm Feel But there is also another option out there. The Borgeson steering box is reported to give far better feel with higher effort and none of the stock Chrysler "tires on ice" overboosted steering response.
I like to get results but at the same time, I hate to see money wasted. If a person admitted that they simply chose one of these kits because they look nice, I'd understand that better than I'd believe that they perform better. Who hasn't chosen a set of wheels or engine dress up items based on how cool they look? Some things are chosen that have zero improvement on performance when we build cars to our own liking.
Darius is the only FBBO member that I personally know that has owned 2 cars that have had upgraded suspensions of differing designs. He had a 69 Dart GTS with a Hotchkis TVS setup and currently owns a 70 GTX with the RMS kit. The comparison isn't totally fair though, as the Plymouth does have better tires and brakes. I'd have loved to see how well they'd match up if the Dart had a Borgeson steering unit and a set of sticky 17" to 18" tires on it.
Sure, there are companies offering something new. Do not take this as a statement that the factory setup is flawed. The torsion bar arrangement was art in engineering. The only real flaw in it is the cramped conditions to fit headers. The RMS/Magnum Force and others are new and shiny, they look modern to the untrained eye but....You can spend about HALF the money by upgrading a few of the stock components and have equal satisfaction with OEM durability and no failures at 3000 miles.
There are plenty of people that rave about how much better their cars feel after installing these aftermarket setups. Well, of COURSE the car handles better than it did with 100,000 miles on a stock setup! I wonder if they know how well an upgraded OEM setup performs. I'm talking about a car with bigger torsion bars, urethane bushings, bigger sway bars, reinforced control arms and K member, frame connectors and a good set of shocks. The stock steering box can be upgraded by companies like Firm Feel But there is also another option out there. The Borgeson steering box is reported to give far better feel with higher effort and none of the stock Chrysler "tires on ice" overboosted steering response.
I like to get results but at the same time, I hate to see money wasted. If a person admitted that they simply chose one of these kits because they look nice, I'd understand that better than I'd believe that they perform better. Who hasn't chosen a set of wheels or engine dress up items based on how cool they look? Some things are chosen that have zero improvement on performance when we build cars to our own liking.
Darius is the only FBBO member that I personally know that has owned 2 cars that have had upgraded suspensions of differing designs. He had a 69 Dart GTS with a Hotchkis TVS setup and currently owns a 70 GTX with the RMS kit. The comparison isn't totally fair though, as the Plymouth does have better tires and brakes. I'd have loved to see how well they'd match up if the Dart had a Borgeson steering unit and a set of sticky 17" to 18" tires on it.
kevin403
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The stock K member does not weigh much. My guess is that the weight losses come from the steering, brakes and such. An aluminum NON power steering rack is a feather compared to the stock iron case P/S chuck, hoses, pump, brackets and fluid.
How about an apples to apples comparison?
The power rack setup would have a pump, brackets, fluid, a belt and a pulley with the extra groove. You'd still be ahead though if the steering rack is aluminum. The stock setup used steel idler arms, pitman arms, center link, lower ball joints for steering arms, etc.
One of my contentions is that if a business is going to promote a product and tout its benefits, do it on a level playing field. Comparing a brand new aftermarket setup to a worn out 200,000 mile slant six chassis is not a direct comparison.
How about an apples to apples comparison?
The power rack setup would have a pump, brackets, fluid, a belt and a pulley with the extra groove. You'd still be ahead though if the steering rack is aluminum. The stock setup used steel idler arms, pitman arms, center link, lower ball joints for steering arms, etc.
One of my contentions is that if a business is going to promote a product and tout its benefits, do it on a level playing field. Comparing a brand new aftermarket setup to a worn out 200,000 mile slant six chassis is not a direct comparison.
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Most examples below were on my old Silver 68 RR I sold 2007
My current 68 RR will have basically the same parts, less strip, more interior etc.
milder engine, camshaft, heads etc.
I've used both aftermarket poly bushed, rubber bushed & tubular stuff
I've had worn out 100k+ miles on OEM stuff & new OEM suspension parts & stuff
I've used stock OE type 13/16" sway bar on the front, none from the factory in rear
Compared to aftermarket 1-3/8" sway bar on front alone than added a 1" rear adjustable sway bar
night & day different, especially from a push & dig poor handling OE stock...
Even bracing & plating or welding up the old worn OE stamped steel
deflection/flexy parts helps a bit
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These torsion bar OE suspensions are known for bad & notorious under-steer,
not really corner carvers, bad body role & unless you drive with the throttle,
or maybe have enough power to kick out the rear,
than you can achieve a bit of over-steer...LOL
Other wise it's a bad push, with out much wider tires, much better shocks,
lower ride height/center of gravity, bigger sway bars, front & rear etc.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like the tubular stuff better, It's just my preferences...
They look better IMO too...
What's wrong with that alone ?, even if it's not just that...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never did weight each piece after taking them off,
I didn't care, I knew what I wanted, after scaling/weighing the car,
it was some 70#'s lighter in front, after doing just all the QA1 stuff...
than all the alum. heads, alum water pump housing, electric water pump,
2 electric fans vs the OE steel or clutch fans,
alum rad, alum intake {albeit a 6bbl is heavy} headers vs cast iron exhaust
SSBC disc brakes not the light ones, taking off 11"x 3" drums,
moving the battery {heavy} to the pass side rear trunk,
it was some 170# less nose weight on the scales
that's even before the lightweight A12 Lift off 6bbl hood
{Weight difference ? maybe 30#'s}
& lightweight alum bumper brackets & fiberglass bumpers too
{maybe another 25 #'s different} have weight them or scaled the car, to tell...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most recently I've done the QA1 stuff,
last 2 RR's I've used a combination of old Capps I had still & the new QA1
& they're very affordable & you can do it pieces at a time,
do the uppers first than not have to spend $3500 all at once, lie some kits
I used several different styles of the "OLD" Capps Automotive stuff too
QA1 bought them out a couple years back, 10-20 years ago, they were the only ones
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know people with Reilly MS with mixed results, but I never used them myself,
mostly complaints, I heard about premature wear & bad bushings etc. {all correctable} &
I know people that use Magnum Force pieces too,
I like their stuff, I like Ron Jenkins the owner too, a real life long true devout Mopar guy
{I've used a few of their parts also} most with great success,
they do look kind of heavy, especially the K-Members, but lighter disc brakes &
no torsion bars make a weight difference, for sure...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've done it in many different variances, different combos over the years
I speak from personal experience, not hearsay/conjecture...
Added SPC double adj. on the car poly bushed UCA's, but haven't had much time yet...
I've used a few different aftermarket & new OE stuff !!
IMO, yes it's just an opinion,
but I'll take the aftermarket stuff, for my performance application,
even with a torsion bar still, with great success...
I've done the coil overs & I've also done Lamb struts too,
but there are mods & fabrications needed
it's not just a bolt on deal for either, depends on whom you get your K-member from
there are as many different styles of them too
I'm not using my cars a daily drivers either, what I can put up with maybe be different...
I build them to suit my taste & not to appease anyone else,
or to tout some old Ma Mopars Engineers, it's more like the penny pinching accountant/cheapskates
that stopped the great Ma Mopar engineers from doing what they really wanted...
But IMO the aftermarket stuff handles better, weighs less, has less deflection/flex,
more infinite adjustability, better tire wear {in my case}, with better stance/ride height control,
without sacrificing any adjustability, better as it goes to bumpsteer too...
{albeit for a dedicated street car, that never sees any track action, just for show,
it's not really necessary, to have all that adjustability, adding a bigger front sway bar
good bushings & adding a adjustable rear sway bar & good shocks
"will make night & day differences" even using OE stamped steel flexy parts}
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even with a nominal weight difference, comparing piece for piece
mainly the torsion bars are really heavy, so are the 11" drum brakes,
vs the disc brakes, especially newer stuff, how much difference part for part, I don't know,
but the torsion bars are in the way, it can be made to work, I've done it too,
but if your using a coil over vs a torsion bar,
than IMO it's going to be quite a bit lighter, far more room, better adjustability,
fully adjustable UCA & tubular LCA's laying back the spindles, for better tracking
or Pos or Neg camber adjustments, for cornering/handling
especially if you use the dynamic adj. strut rods vs the OE designed
either poly or rubber bushed rods
better oil pan clearances, especially if you don't use a steering box with the OEM
"rear steer style of boxes" cross & drag links under the pan,
if you go to a front steer rack & pinion, flop your lower ball joints left to right visa versa
you gain a ton of room, for better header clearances & oil pans or starters even,
you could run a FC style oil pan if it's a "front steer", especially if you go to the coil overs too...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My current car will be using the QA1 tubular pieces, OE org. 68 RR Torsion bars
& a Power Unisteer bolt on style "rear steer"
{Omni style reverse rotation} rack & pinion
I wouldn't recommend it {Under pan Rack}, had to mess with bump steer,
PITA no header room, building my own anyway & not many choices of Oil Pans either,
reduced turning radius, all correctable if you want to do some work/fab stuff...
Not exactly a bolt on & go unless your using all stock stuff...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, I'm done writing this damn book...LOL
I hope it helped someone, even a little bit,
it's a real world take not just hearsay/conjecture,
or rumors someone heard on the -www-, than passing it on with no personal
experience/knowledge...
IMO it's well worth doing the tubular suspension stuff,
most any of the aftermarket suspensions, if your incline to...
Just do your due diligence 1st/research it don't go by hearsay/conjecture,
bias opinions...
To each their own...
My current 68 RR will have basically the same parts, less strip, more interior etc.
milder engine, camshaft, heads etc.
I've used both aftermarket poly bushed, rubber bushed & tubular stuff
I've had worn out 100k+ miles on OEM stuff & new OEM suspension parts & stuff
I've used stock OE type 13/16" sway bar on the front, none from the factory in rear
Compared to aftermarket 1-3/8" sway bar on front alone than added a 1" rear adjustable sway bar
night & day different, especially from a push & dig poor handling OE stock...
Even bracing & plating or welding up the old worn OE stamped steel
deflection/flexy parts helps a bit
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These torsion bar OE suspensions are known for bad & notorious under-steer,
not really corner carvers, bad body role & unless you drive with the throttle,
or maybe have enough power to kick out the rear,
than you can achieve a bit of over-steer...LOL
Other wise it's a bad push, with out much wider tires, much better shocks,
lower ride height/center of gravity, bigger sway bars, front & rear etc.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like the tubular stuff better, It's just my preferences...
They look better IMO too...
What's wrong with that alone ?, even if it's not just that...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never did weight each piece after taking them off,
I didn't care, I knew what I wanted, after scaling/weighing the car,
it was some 70#'s lighter in front, after doing just all the QA1 stuff...
than all the alum. heads, alum water pump housing, electric water pump,
2 electric fans vs the OE steel or clutch fans,
alum rad, alum intake {albeit a 6bbl is heavy} headers vs cast iron exhaust
SSBC disc brakes not the light ones, taking off 11"x 3" drums,
moving the battery {heavy} to the pass side rear trunk,
it was some 170# less nose weight on the scales
that's even before the lightweight A12 Lift off 6bbl hood
{Weight difference ? maybe 30#'s}
& lightweight alum bumper brackets & fiberglass bumpers too
{maybe another 25 #'s different} have weight them or scaled the car, to tell...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most recently I've done the QA1 stuff,
last 2 RR's I've used a combination of old Capps I had still & the new QA1
& they're very affordable & you can do it pieces at a time,
do the uppers first than not have to spend $3500 all at once, lie some kits
I used several different styles of the "OLD" Capps Automotive stuff too
QA1 bought them out a couple years back, 10-20 years ago, they were the only ones
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know people with Reilly MS with mixed results, but I never used them myself,
mostly complaints, I heard about premature wear & bad bushings etc. {all correctable} &
I know people that use Magnum Force pieces too,
I like their stuff, I like Ron Jenkins the owner too, a real life long true devout Mopar guy
{I've used a few of their parts also} most with great success,
they do look kind of heavy, especially the K-Members, but lighter disc brakes &
no torsion bars make a weight difference, for sure...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've done it in many different variances, different combos over the years
I speak from personal experience, not hearsay/conjecture...
Added SPC double adj. on the car poly bushed UCA's, but haven't had much time yet...
I've used a few different aftermarket & new OE stuff !!
IMO, yes it's just an opinion,
but I'll take the aftermarket stuff, for my performance application,
even with a torsion bar still, with great success...
I've done the coil overs & I've also done Lamb struts too,
but there are mods & fabrications needed
it's not just a bolt on deal for either, depends on whom you get your K-member from
there are as many different styles of them too
I'm not using my cars a daily drivers either, what I can put up with maybe be different...
I build them to suit my taste & not to appease anyone else,
or to tout some old Ma Mopars Engineers, it's more like the penny pinching accountant/cheapskates
that stopped the great Ma Mopar engineers from doing what they really wanted...
But IMO the aftermarket stuff handles better, weighs less, has less deflection/flex,
more infinite adjustability, better tire wear {in my case}, with better stance/ride height control,
without sacrificing any adjustability, better as it goes to bumpsteer too...
{albeit for a dedicated street car, that never sees any track action, just for show,
it's not really necessary, to have all that adjustability, adding a bigger front sway bar
good bushings & adding a adjustable rear sway bar & good shocks
"will make night & day differences" even using OE stamped steel flexy parts}
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even with a nominal weight difference, comparing piece for piece
mainly the torsion bars are really heavy, so are the 11" drum brakes,
vs the disc brakes, especially newer stuff, how much difference part for part, I don't know,
but the torsion bars are in the way, it can be made to work, I've done it too,
but if your using a coil over vs a torsion bar,
than IMO it's going to be quite a bit lighter, far more room, better adjustability,
fully adjustable UCA & tubular LCA's laying back the spindles, for better tracking
or Pos or Neg camber adjustments, for cornering/handling
especially if you use the dynamic adj. strut rods vs the OE designed
either poly or rubber bushed rods
better oil pan clearances, especially if you don't use a steering box with the OEM
"rear steer style of boxes" cross & drag links under the pan,
if you go to a front steer rack & pinion, flop your lower ball joints left to right visa versa
you gain a ton of room, for better header clearances & oil pans or starters even,
you could run a FC style oil pan if it's a "front steer", especially if you go to the coil overs too...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My current car will be using the QA1 tubular pieces, OE org. 68 RR Torsion bars
& a Power Unisteer bolt on style "rear steer"
{Omni style reverse rotation} rack & pinion
I wouldn't recommend it {Under pan Rack}, had to mess with bump steer,
PITA no header room, building my own anyway & not many choices of Oil Pans either,
reduced turning radius, all correctable if you want to do some work/fab stuff...
Not exactly a bolt on & go unless your using all stock stuff...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, I'm done writing this damn book...LOL
I hope it helped someone, even a little bit,
it's a real world take not just hearsay/conjecture,
or rumors someone heard on the -www-, than passing it on with no personal
experience/knowledge...
IMO it's well worth doing the tubular suspension stuff,
most any of the aftermarket suspensions, if your incline to...
Just do your due diligence 1st/research it don't go by hearsay/conjecture,
bias opinions...
To each their own...
Last edited:
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