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It looks like even the car shows on TV are going green with woke BS!

Ironbuilt said:
The first Tesla semi was over $1,000,000!! My fully loaded Kenworth, which is the top of the line semi made, was $180,000. I am not making anything up. I have forgotten more about trucks than you will ever know!!
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How much did the first Kenworth prototype cost? You can't count the cost of the first Tesla semi as being typical. Their 300 mile range truck is estimated at $150,000, and an additional $30,000 for the 500 mile range version. Either one is still limited to 80,000 GVW.

As for "where are those 38 prototypes recharging", most likely at home base. When someone has a fleet of delivery vehicles, they usually do their own charging. The US government, for instance, ordered two fast charge stations to go with the ten Tesla semi trucks that they ordered.
 
Ironbuilt said:
Average fuel costs per year is around $50,000. I noticed that you didn't address the fires that are all too common with electric cars. You want to sleep in a semi that may self-combust? I don't.
The other thing that you are failing to add into the equation is hydraulics. Are they going to run off the same batteries? Eat into charge life? Something has to run the PTO pump for hydraulics. Dump trucks!! Tanker trucks!! Tow trucks!! Low boy trucks!! Etc. Etc. Etc. The specialized market that I spoke of.
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This is an area I have not seen addressed by electric or hybrid technology. Not saying it's not? I've just never seen.
 
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Lithium batteries are dangerous animals and there are examples of EVs burning out of control for days without being able to be extinguished. Richard Hammond crashed a Rimac EV prototype and though the fire team was on the scene in minutes, they couldn't get the fire out.

Many examples of laptop and cell phone batteries swelling and exploding. The tech is not 100% the same, but similar enough to be concerned.

I believe nearly all of the car fires are due to wrecks where the batteries are punctured, not spontaneous explosions.

However, Lithium is the present, not the future. Sodium-based batteries are on the horizon and are safer and better in every way. We are still in the training-wheels stage, the EV stuff isn't quite perfected yet. ;)
 
I see they took down my post of silly ads? I guess I don't blame them. The site is a business. It's wasn't a bash on this site. It was a bash of these bad ads everywhere.
 
Ironbuilt said:
Address this...


The other thing that you are failing to add into the equation is hydraulics. Are they going to run off the same batteries? Eat into charge life? Something has to run the PTO pump for hydraulics. Dump trucks!! Tanker trucks!! Tow trucks!! Low boy trucks!! Etc. Etc. Etc. The specialized market that I spoke of.
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If you've noticed, a lot of newer vehicles have abandoned things like engine driven fans and power steering, as electric drive is more efficient. I'm sure that as the need arises, this technology will trickle into such examples as you've brought up.

Luckily, such large trucks as a tanker or tow truck don't need to worry as much about extra battery weight.

Anyway it's not for me to figure out, I'm not building or selling these things. I'm sure the engineers dedicated to this task will foresee and work on solutions. I'm merely observing what's happening with current and upcoming technology trends and find it interesting. Some people used to say that man would never fly. Some military commanders decreed that jet engines were a toy that would have no place in real fighters. And some people work through technical problems and find solutions.
 
Cojohnso1 said:
I see they took down my post of silly ads? I guess I don't blame them. The site is a business. It's wasn't a bash on this site. It was a bash of these bad ads everywhere.
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Become a Gold Member, it cuts those pesky ads down big time.
 
Cojohnso1 said:
I see they took down my post of silly ads? I guess I don't blame them. The site is a business. It's wasn't a bash on this site. It was a bash of these bad ads everywhere.
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Become a Gold Member, it cuts those pesky ads down big time.
Photon440 said:
Luckily, such large trucks as a tanker or tow truck don't need to worry as much about extra battery weight.
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Actually, tankers often run right at max legal weight. Added battery weight will be an issue. I too am interested in technology, but I don't see it through rose colored glasses. The trucking industry has been my bread and butter forever, so I pay close attention. I see a lot of "feel good" stories involving "alternative" trucks, but nothing that truly addresses the trucking industry. Don't take this personal, I mean no offense, but most people advocating for electric semis, have no idea about the trucking industry.
 
Ironbuilt said:
Become a Gold Member, it cuts those pesky ads down big time.

Actually, tankers often run right at max legal weight. Added battery weight will be an issue. I too am interested in technology, but I don't see it through rose colored glasses. The trucking industry has been my bread and butter forever, so I pay close attention. I see a lot of "feel good" stories involving "alternative" trucks, but nothing that truly addresses the trucking industry. Don't take this personal, I mean no offense, but most people advocating for electric semis, have no idea about the trucking industry.
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Weight is life and death in the trucking industry. No other industry other than maybe boxing lives as much on the scale. It's why there is so many weigh stations? But even you have to admit the industry is bias to diesel. And why shouldn't they? Diesel has been very good to the industry. But to ignore the new kid on the block? Is death to any business. If a truck can carry the load for even 25% less cost? It will be over quick for diesel. (And I keep cutting the cost savings in half? And it's still spells doom for diesel.) Hell, cut it in half again? 12.5%?
 
Ironbuilt said:
Don't take this personal, I mean no offense, but most people advocating for electric semis, have no idea about the trucking industry.
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You're probably 100% correct on that thought. Personally, I'm not advocating for, or against electric semis; as I said, I'm just interested in what's happening. I did work for many years in the inter-modal section of the railway, so I am aware that shippers are trying to cut long haul costs in whatever way possible.
 
Photon440 said:
You're probably 100% correct on that thought. Personally, I'm not advocating for, or against electric semis; as I said, I'm just interested in what's happening. I did work for many years in the inter-modal section of the railway, so I am aware that shippers are trying to cut long haul costs in whatever way possible.
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My biggest concern is a rush to market for political reasons. That will cause the trucking industry to suffer greatly. Like when they de-regulated in the 80's. It took a while to recover.
 
Ironbuilt said:
What do you disagree with @mpgmike
We @Cojohnso1 @Photon440 and I are having an intellectual discussion. Please join in. No insults please.
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I agree. This debate has been VERY civil. Iron's point on hydraulic truck work has alot of merit. And perhaps electric come sweeping in to "Save the day." Maybe far premature. I certainly have to acknowledge that possibility.
 
I think the main thing about electrics, ignoring anything else such as weight or initial cost, is cost to operate. Long, LONG before clean air was on anyone's radar, Vancouver was operating a fleet of electric trolley buses. Starting in 1947, they continue to this day. These Brill buses were still on the streets when I road buses in the mid '70s. Once, on a rainy road, the driver (it was almost midnight and I was the only passenger, asking questions about it...) showed me how he could spin the tires across an intersection. They certainly did accelerate much faster than the other diesel buses.
upload_2021-5-30_18-51-10.png


This is what the current fleet looks like. Not having been on a bus in decades, I have no idea what this one rides like. That concrete in the background is for the elevated SkyTrain system, another part of our rapid transit. It is also electric.
upload_2021-5-30_18-54-56.png
 
Ironbuilt said:
What do you disagree with @mpgmike
We @Cojohnso1 @Photon440 and I are having an intellectual discussion. Please join in. No insults please.
Click to expand...
I personally am involved professionally with the improvement of electrical energy storage and distribution. I don't necessarily disagree with anybody, as I can relate to just about everything posted; both sides. I recall thinking about how historically the Roman era was rather grand. As it was overtaken by foreign invaders, there were those that lamented the loss of running water, sewer, military protection, trade that enabled the purchase of tea and other awesome goods...

With that said, I am not a Biden supporter. If he succeeds with his agendas, we may see our beloved older cars legislated out. I am definitely not for that; as that would be like the foreign invaders killing the beloved Roman Empire. I support the notion that the free-market should dictate the direction of technology, not government. I also recognize that to stay in the 1960's forever locks humanity into a fixed position in time. I marvel at some of the concepts presented in some of the Star Trek (and spin-offs) series, where humanity grows past most of the petty things that currently drive and hinder us today.

I want to see progress, but not at the expense of legislated loss of freedom. I don't believe the internal combustion engine has reached its apex just yet, nor do I believe the electric drivetrain has either. Both have room for improvement, and let the best technology win. Again, I happen to be involved with technology where my opinion may be slightly biased.

If I hit the "Disagree" button at the bottom of a post, it is because I believe someone has made a statement that misses the "Freedom to Choose" clause I live (and will willingly die) by. My opinions are not dictated as law to the masses, nor should any "President", "Premier", "Prime Minister", or other potentate's.

Sorry for the offense, but if I clicked "Disagree", it was probably because you were bashing someone with an opinion that I couldn't see as absolutely "wrong"; even if I didn't agree with it.
 
mpgmike said:
Just a quick note: the Diesel engine was invented by a German -- Rudolph von Diesel in the 1880's -- and was designed to run on coal dust. It didn't actually find market relevance until around the 1960's, and ultimately ran on petroleum products (think Rockefeller). Henry Ford originally intended to use electric drivetrains in his cars, but struck a deal with Rockefeller to use petroleum-based fuel. When trying to figure out what technology will win, follow the money.
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Although Rudolph did exhibit some interest in coal dust, his engines actually ran on peanut oil...diesel fuel not being in existence at the time. Personally, I'm surprised that he didn't use kerosene. And ironically, despite Henry Ford's empire of gasoline cars his wife Clara didn't like them. She drove a Detroit Electric.

Not to say that Ford was against electrics. This is from a 1914 news article (Jan 11 New York Times):


Within a year, I hope, we shall begin the manufacture of an electric automobile. I don't like to talk about things which are a year ahead, but I am willing to tell you something of my plans.

The fact is that Mr. Edison and I have been working for some years on an electric automobile which would be cheap and practicable. Cars have been built for experimental purposes, and we are satisfied now that the way is clear to success. The problem so far has been to build a storage battery of light weight which would operate for long distances without recharging. Mr. Edison has been experimenting with such a battery for some time.

What happened to it? Apparently Ford, who was fascinated by Edison, wanted to use Edison's Nickel-Iron batteries for the car, but they weren't good enough. The prototypes only worked well with lead acid batteries and when Ford found out that they had been switched, he blew his top.
 
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mpgmike said:
I personally am involved professionally with the improvement of electrical energy storage and distribution. I don't necessarily disagree with anybody, as I can relate to just about everything posted; both sides. I recall thinking about how historically the Roman era was rather grand. As it was overtaken by foreign invaders, there were those that lamented the loss of running water, sewer, military protection, trade that enabled the purchase of tea and other awesome goods...

With that said, I am not a Biden supporter. If he succeeds with his agendas, we may see our beloved older cars legislated out. I am definitely not for that; as that would be like the foreign invaders killing the beloved Roman Empire. I support the notion that the free-market should dictate the direction of technology, not government. I also recognize that to stay in the 1960's forever locks humanity into a fixed position in time. I marvel at some of the concepts presented in some of the Star Trek (and spin-offs) series, where humanity grows past most of the petty things that currently drive and hinder us today.

I want to see progress, but not at the expense of legislated loss of freedom. I don't believe the internal combustion engine has reached its apex just yet, nor do I believe the electric drivetrain has either. Both have room for improvement, and let the best technology win. Again, I happen to be involved with technology where my opinion may be slightly biased.

If I hit the "Disagree" button at the bottom of a post, it is because I believe someone has made a statement that misses the "Freedom to Choose" clause I live (and will willingly die) by. My opinions are not dictated as law to the masses, nor should any "President", "Premier", "Prime Minister", or other potentate's.

Sorry for the offense, but if I clicked "Disagree", it was probably because you were bashing someone with an opinion that I couldn't see as absolutely "wrong"; even if I didn't agree with it.
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I too am A Biden supporter. And I'm somewhat familiar (at least as a Senator) how he negotiates. He comes in big. Then backs off for a compromise solution. Look at the infrastructure bill? He has all but cut in half. So I'm not worried about "Sweeping changes" Especially to the collector markets. New sales? Yes, there will be incentives that favor alternatives. To expedite what I feel is the inevitable. Electric transportation is just flatout more efficient, less maintenance and much more ecologically sound. But to accommodate? An upgrade of our existing Electric grid. Thus the heavy infrastructure bill.. I believe there is a heavy push now because of climate concerns. If the science is wrong? All that was done was to expedite the newer technologies. If the denying crowd is wrong? We may very well be too late. And mediation efforts as well as carbon reductions are needed. Either way? We lead? Or?
 
Photon440 said:
I think the main thing about electrics, ignoring anything else such as weight or initial cost, is cost to operate. Long, LONG before clean air was on anyone's radar, Vancouver was operating a fleet of electric trolley buses. Starting in 1947, they continue to this day. These Brill buses were still on the streets when I road buses in the mid '70s. Once, on a rainy road, the driver (it was almost midnight and I was the only passenger, asking questions about it...) showed me how he could spin the tires across an intersection. They certainly did accelerate much faster than the other diesel buses.
View attachment 1117425

This is what the current fleet looks like. Not having been on a bus in decades, I have no idea what this one rides like. That concrete in the background is for the elevated SkyTrain system, another part of our rapid transit. It is also electric.
View attachment 1117426
Click to expand...
When I lived in New Jersey, they decided to transition to electric trains on their NJ Transit lines. Sad part is, they never considered the infrastructure. The end result was lost lines, and now NJ Transit is bankrupt with the tax payer supporting it. I actually applied for a diesel mechanic job at NJ Transit's train yard when my father died. I was hired but I turned it down due to the hour commute. Good thing, I would be screwed today.
 
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