440 , rebuild or use

[Phoenix440]

Looking for some advice from the knowledgeable people here.
Have had the heads removed from 60" over 440 after confirming engine had a combustion leak, after eliminating other overvheating causes.
The engine also had some oil in coolant but no coolant in oil.

Was hoping the head gaskets may have been blown out or there were were cracks in the heads.
There are however, no breaks or obvious indicators of leaks on the gaskets.
I have had an opinion from an engine builder who said the standard felpro gaskets can leak ( engine is supposedly 9.5.1 comp but was beat on by previous owner,who claimed he used to rev to 7k)
The engine guy said this may be the issue but it's a crap shoot either way without an obvious crack or break or discoloured gaskets, that the leak is in fact caused by poor head sealing.
The heads were not professionally surfaced when they were previously removed. There was also some head bolts that didn't seem as tight as would be expected, so thinking the heads may not have sealed properly.

My question is what are the chances there is crack in one or more of the bores, or is a combustion leak more likely to be due to bad seal on the heads I can't see any cracks with the engine in the car.
Are cracked bores something that anyone has seen before? I want to avoid pulling the engine out if possible, but just hoping someone can offer some advice.
I forgot to.mention the engine has only done a few hundred miles and has had over heating issues from the time it was installed after previous owner freshened up the engine.

Have included some pics of the gaskets, there are a few odd stains on them but hard to be sure what's what.
Thanks in advance

 

[BeepBeepRR]

You could have him mag the block to check for cracks. pretty typical part of engine rebuilding.

 

[Phoenix440]

You could have him mag the block to check for cracks. pretty typical part of engine rebuildin

You could have him mag the block to check for cracks. pretty typical part of engine rebuilding.

I will probably be using another block if I have to do a full rebuild and will definitely get that done. Was hoping I might avoid pulling the engine,l and rebuilding, if there's a chance the leak was caused by the heads not sealing.

 

[Doorkicker]

I kinda think the answer is in your question. Putting aside pulling the engine and testing the block before rebuilding/refreshing - something you said you didn't really want to do, which I get - the easy solution is check and resurface the heads, if they're good, get a new set of head gaskets and put them back on. The part you said about head bolts not being tight... or seemingly not as tight as you would think... and the head surface condition not great... these are all signs of a shotty head install, and no gasket is going to perform well in that situation. Downside? You spent $100-$150 on gaskets and perhaps the same to get each head worked...so $300-$350? I guess depends on your machine shop pricing and how bad the heads are. And after all that.... find out you have a crack in the cylinder wall, which is equally likely. Upside? It runs fine and you dodged a bullet.

 

[Phoenix440]

I kinda think the answer is in your question. Putting aside pulling the engine and testing the block before rebuilding/refreshing - something you said you didn't really want to do, which I get - the easy solution is check and resurface the heads, if they're good, get a new set of head gaskets and put them back on. The part you said about head bolts not being tight... or seemingly not as tight as you would think... and the head surface condition not great... these are all signs of a shotty head install, and no gasket is going to perform well in that situation. Downside? You spent $100-$150 on gaskets and perhaps the same to get each head worked...so $300-$350? I guess depends on your machine shop pricing and how bad the heads are. And after all that.... find out you have a crack in the cylinder wall, which is equally likely. Upside? It runs fine and you dodged a bullet.

Thanks for your input,you are right, it might be worth trying it with surfacing and head gaskets.

 

[radical rob]

Check the deck surface with a good straightedge as well. This is the time to throw out all assumptions and check everything

 

[Rebelrouser]

Check the deck surface with a good straightedge as well. This is the time to throw out all assumptions and check everything

I have been building engines a long time, the B and RB engines have very little trouble with head gaskets leaking, make sure deck and heads are straight. And may sound simplistic but also check your torque wrench that it is accurate.

 

[Jerry Hall]

Having the heads checked and surfaced is something that you are going to do regardless of the block condition. So all you are going to lose is a set of gaskets, by trying without pulling the engine. You said that if you pull the engine, that you will discard the the block. So I think you have answered your own question.

 

[WileE]

"There are however, no breaks or obvious indicators of leaks on the gaskets." I've never seen a head gasket leak without the obvious indicator on the head gasket. Anyone else ?

 

[padam]

"There are however, no breaks or obvious indicators of leaks on the gaskets." I've never seen a head gasket leak without the obvious indicator on the head gasket. Anyone else ?

Mine were leaking at the back inside corner of the right head.
I was using steel shim gaskets that had some rust after a couple of years and the block deck surface was really ruff.
There was a lot of leakage but the coolant leaked onto the lifters and I think it may have contributed to early cam wear.

I switched to Felpro composite gaskets and it’s not leaking anymore.

 

[Encswsm]

you could do a Dye penetrant test on the block and in the cylinders to see if it has a crack. You can do a DP test without having to take the whole thing apart.

 

[69Bee]

In pics: 1,2,3,5, and 6, there are swirl marks indicating the heads WERE milled. In pics:3,4,7,8,9, and 10, the marks are horizontal (left to right) indicating that the block was not cut. Look at the heads and you will see the swirl cut marks from milling. I am curious about the large black marks going from the oil galley (rocker arm oiling) hole to the water slot. That is the likely "oil in the coolant" path. Oil pressure vs. 16lb coolant pressure; oil is going to win the pressure battle. As far as the loose head bolts, you said there were overheating issues. That is going to crush the head gasket and after it cools, there will be a loss of bolt clamp force and some bolts will be easier to remove.

Surface the heads, install new gaskets and you should be fine.

 

[Geoff 2]

What model Phoenix? I always wondered where mine went.

There are odd looking marks on the gaskets emanating from coolant holes. Crack in the deck?

If you need heads or a block, have a mate in Syd would likely have both. PM me if needed.

 

[Phoenix440]

In pics: 1,2,3,5, and 6, there are swirl marks indicating the heads WERE milled. In pics:3,4,7,8,9, and 10, the marks are horizontal (left to right) indicating that the block was not cut. Look at the heads and you will see the swirl cut marks from milling. I am curious about the large black marks going from the oil galley (rocker arm oiling) hole to the water slot. That is the likely "oil in the coolant" path. Oil pressure vs. 16lb coolant pressure; oil is going to win the pressure battle. As far as the loose head bolts, you said there were overheating issues. That is going to crush the head gasket and after it cools, there will be a loss of bolt clamp force and some bolts will be easier to remove.

Surface the heads, install new gaskets and you should be fine.

Was hoping someone could make sense of the gasket blemishes. Definitely looking like the heads weren't sealing. Thanks for the info.

 

[Phoenix440]

In pics: 1,2,3,5, and 6, there are swirl marks indicating the heads WERE milled. In pics:3,4,7,8,9, and 10, the marks are horizontal (left to right) indicating that the block was not cut. Look at the heads and you will see the swirl cut marks from milling. I am curious about the large black marks going from the oil galley (rocker arm oiling) hole to the water slot. That is the likely "oil in the coolant" path. Oil pressure vs. 16lb coolant pressure; oil is going to win the pressure battle. As far as the loose head bolts, you said there were overheating issues. That is going to crush the head gasket and after it cools, there will be a loss of bolt clamp force and some bolts will be easier to remove.

Surface the heads, install new gaskets and you should be fine.

Thanks for the info, Was hoping someone could make sense of the gasket blemishes. Definitely looking like the heads weren't sealing.
Took the heads to machine shop today and the guy said the heads were roughly milled and not surfaced sp you were spot on.
Have measured the deck now, both sides have depressions around the 2 and 4, and 1 and 3 cylinders between .004 and .006 in one spot. Not sure if this will seal, may have to stsrt another thread on that topic.

 

[Phoenix440]

What model Phoenix? I always wondered where mine went.

There are odd looking marks on the gaskets emanating from coolant holes. Crack in the deck?

If you need heads or a block, have a mate in Syd would likely have both. PM me if needed.

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